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Thread: Mixing Question: Problems getting healthy dynamics range, re: vocals

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    Quote Originally Posted by miroslav View Post
    You still have to decide on one or the other rate...or does Reaper read your mind and make the decision for you.
    It resamples to the rate your interface is set to for playback and to whatever you ask it to render to. Just drop them in the project and it works.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
    It resamples to the rate your interface is set to for playback and to whatever you ask it to render to. Just drop them in the project and it works.
    I guess you missed the sarcasm in my last post.

    What your talking about is nothing special to Reaper.
    Yes...if I have a project set to one sample rate, and I go to drop in some audio files at a different rate...my DAW will covert them.
    I think most DAWs have been capable of doing that for some time now.

    The point I was making when I said I had to convert them wasn't to suggest that I would need a hammer and chisel and 3 hours of my time to do the conversion...but that there were two different sets of files, and this NOT being my project, I didn't know which rate was preferred by the OP, and that it meant the other files would have to get converted.
    It was just an observation and meant for the attention of the OP that he had a mix of files in his project. It wasn't a statement of hard labor that I would have to undertake to make the conversions.

    Now...do you have something of value for the OP and his situation to add here...or not?

    FYI....the DAW I use existed probably about 15 or more years before Reaper was even a twinkle in some developers eye...and much of what you see in Reaper was thought of and invented by a few older DAW apps that have been around for a long time. The guys at Reaper just basically copied everything. I don't think there's much of anything in Reaper that's actually "original".

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    Vegas Pro doesn't convert files, it just resamples on the fly. That is, there is no new file created at the new sample rate. You can freely change the sample rate of the project without creating a bunch of new files (not that I would recommend it). You do take a processing hit for mixed rates. You can do the same with word length ("bit rate"), but I doubt it takes much processing power to get that done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bouldersoundguy View Post
    ...(not that I would recommend it). You do take a processing hit for mixed rates.
    And I wouldn't do that either.

    I actually think it kind of stupid to knowingly have a bunch mix rate/bit files in a project and to constantly have the DAW resampling them in real-time...and then start adding a bunch of FX/processing to them...and now all of THAT is also getting mixed into the resampling in real time....etc.
    That's a pretty fucking sloppy way to work knowingly, IMO. I don't know what's the benefit or point of working like that other than not wanting some extra/new files in your folder...'cuz we know how expensive hard drive space is these days!

    AFA the actual "work" required for a DAW to do a file conversion to a different rate, it's a mouse click. I'll always take the extra minute or two to "clean up" things. If there was a whole lot of miss-matched files...well, a batch conversion takes care of that, and you still have the original files too, so you're not destroying anything.
    In my own projects...I don't ever end up with mixed rate files in one project, though back in the day I was running things at 88.2, so I do have some older, unfinished projects that if I was to pick up on today, I would probably convert them all to 48, which is what I use these days.
    When I run any VSTi/MIDI stuff...which tends to be at 44.1 for most ready-made sample libraries, I always bounce it out as pure audio, which is done at my 48 rate.

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    I guess I've been in Reaper too long to know (or care) what other DAWs are doing. Last time I used Sonar, it would have required that you do the sample rate conversion before importing the files. I always hated Cubase, but for a lot more reasons than that. I guess I can see converting "destructively" to avoid the realtime resampling. It does take some CPU ticks to accomplish. In a really large project, it might be worth. Converting for bit depth would be silly though. It's got the dynamic range that it's got, and gets "converted" to 32 or 64 bit floating in the mix engine anyway. The output is going to be whatever your interface does or you choose for a render format.

    My first post was basically IISGIIG, but then apparently it doesn't actually sound good. I find it kind of interesting that it was the nerdy, almost nitpicky technical "numbers crap" - which we tend to tell people to ignore - that acted as a hint that the mix might need revision. Somehow the OP wasn't hearing what was wrong in the mix, but the numbers said there must be something, and now here we are. Sometimes those meters can reveal things we're missing or help us track down that "something's wrong, but what?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by miroslav View Post
    And I wouldn't do that either.

    I actually think it kind of stupid to knowingly have a bunch mix rate/bit files in a project and to constantly have the DAW resampling them in real-time...
    Of course, but Vegas Pro is also a video editor so it's designed to accommodate assembling projects from files that aren't necessarily recorded in the project. There's nothing stopping the user from resampling files before importing them if that's preferred. Given the power of modern computers it's hardly noticeable when a mismatched sample rate file is used.

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    And don't forget to send screenshots of your plugin collection (or type if up if its real simple and short)

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    Quote Originally Posted by miroslav View Post
    Jimmy...be careful...some of his "stem" files a REAL HOT...turn down your monitors.
    Holy crap! Yeah there were...
    PC Win7-64-24G i7-4790k/Cubase 9 Pro 64-bit/2-Steinberg UR824's/ADAM A7x/Event TR8/SS Trigger Plat Deluxe/Melodyne 4 Studio/Other things that don't mean anything if a client shows up not knowing what it wants.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
    I guess I can see converting "destructively" to avoid the realtime resampling.
    I'm not sure why you think it's a destructive process?
    When I do that in my DAW, it will just generate a new file at the new rate...the old file is still intact.

    AFA the OPs tracks and mix...mmm...they need work, but then, it's really up to him how much work he wants to do. I don't mean just figuring out how to make the vocals sit better....I already took care of that last night with some basic cut/adjust edits, and got the vocal to a much more acceptable level-balanced state from start to finish...otherwise, if it was me, I would redo a lot of the tracks, especially the guitars because they are simply out of tune.
    I know that I get a bit too sensitive about tuning, and I can see that a lot of folks simply don't mind or don't hear it...I'm just saying that to make the song sound much, much better...I would redo them I think only one of them sounds in-tune, because it's mostly power chord stuff, so you just hear the low strings, which don't show tuning issues as much as the higher strings.

    That said, I think with the vocals level-balanced, and I also did some tweaking on the drum "stem" track to give them more clarity and snap...along with some tweaks to the bass guitar (also level-balancing and some EQ...the OP can take those tracks and add/replace to what he already has, and I think his original issue of not being able to tame the LUFS to acceptable numbers...will be solved.
    I mean...the tracks could use a lot of work...OR...take the basic fixes and just go with the rest as is. It's not something that will be fixed with plugins. It's more about re-tracking everything there is a desire to improve on it substantially.
    Anyway...I'll try and finish up today/tomorrow and send them back to him to check out...otherwise, it would take a lot of work & time to redo all this stuff, and not something I'm going to get into. I mean, it's really for the OP to do, since it will also help him progress.


    Quote Originally Posted by bouldersoundguy View Post
    Of course, but Vegas Pro is also a video editor so it's designed to accommodate assembling projects from files that aren't necessarily recorded in the project. There's nothing stopping the user from resampling files before importing them if that's preferred. Given the power of modern computers it's hardly noticeable when a mismatched sample rate file is used.
    Yeah, I also have Vegas...but in the case of audio files that are "attached" to video clips, that's a bit of a different situation. it's not as straightforward to convert, but then, most video is shot with the audio sample rate at 48 kHz as the default/standard...so the clips should have the same sample rate for the audio...though it may not always be the case if someone had a good reason to use something other than 48 kHz.

    That said...IMO, if it's a small project with only a handful of files/tracks...there's no reason not to take the step to get everything set to one reference...
    ...and if the project is rather large, than IMO, you really should make the effort to get everything set to one reference.
    It may not be a show-stopper if you don't...but like I said earlier, IMO it's just sloppy not to.

    Not trying to embarrass the OP, since this is just a impromptu helping hand situation... but after downloading all his files (and there aren't a lot, I think only like 20 or so) it still took me awhile just to sort things out a bit, and I'm still not done (busy all day with other stuff).
    The naming convention was unclear in some case...OK, I know that he knows what it all means... ... but when I see 10 tracks with "EG1, EG2, etc"...I can only guess it means "electric guitar", but it doesn't really tell me what the tracks are about, only the type of instrument used. Likewise seeing the multiple sample rates, and sorting out what all the tracks are supposed to be doing, and just getting things cleaned up and organized so it's clear what your looking at and what your hearing...is important, IMO.
    So I could not see myself ever working with multiple sample rates just because DAW technology lets me do that. It's just easier when it's neat and organized.

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    Quote Originally Posted by miroslav View Post
    I'm not sure why you think it's a destructive process? ...so the clips should have the same sample rate for the audio...though it may not always be the case if someone had a good reason to use something other than 48 kHz.
    Thanks miroslav. To clarify, I never even realized there were tracks with different sampling rates until I exported them to upload here. I just "assumed" they'd all be 48K. Never dawned on me some wouldn't be. So, yeah, it makes sense to make them more uniform, but which way do I go? 48s to 44 or vv? I thought (obviously incorrectly) that you wouldn't want to convert, since REAPER renders on the fly, and cuz then when you render the project you're converting again. It's my understanding that converting sampling rates downgrades the sound quality and you want to do it as few times as possible. So that's where I thought the destructive piece takes place. So, would the idea be that I should make them all 44.1, and then render all files to 44.1? So, no, I had no reason for sticking with two sample rates. Have to confess, I just missed it. Not wed to 44 or 48; tell me what to do and I'll fix it. Also, feel free to convert the files you downloaded as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by miroslav View Post
    Not trying to embarrass the OP, since this is just a impromptu helping hand situation... but after downloading all his files (and there aren't a lot, I think only like 20 or so) it still took me awhile just to sort things out a bit, and I'm still not done (busy all day with other stuff).

    ...

    it doesn't really tell me what the tracks are about, only the type of instrument used. Likewise seeing the multiple sample rates, and sorting out what all the tracks are supposed to be doing, and just getting things cleaned up and organized so it's clear what your looking at and what your hearing...is important, IMO.
    I'm not embarrassed at all just humbled! However, that in a good way. It's humbling cuz I'm learning how little I know. So, this is extremely helpful to me. I'm getting a lot more out of this thread than I ever imagined. I'm learning a lot from you guys already, and I haven't even heard your mixes yet. Thank you for this.

    Miroslav, your comments on my file naming: sorry for the inconvenience. I feel like I created unnecessary work for you! I apologize. Could you give me a few examples, looking at my files, of track names that would have been more helpful?

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