Mixing Question: Problems getting healthy dynamics range, re: vocals

I find it kind of interesting that it was the nerdy, almost nitpicky technical "numbers crap" - which we tend to tell people to ignore - that acted as a hint that the mix might need revision. Somehow the OP wasn't hearing what was wrong in the mix, but the numbers said there must be something, and now here we are. Sometimes those meters can reveal things we're missing or help us track down that "something's wrong, but what?"

Good point, ashcat. The only thing I particularly picked up on early on was that something was "off" with the dynamics of the vocals, but there's no question that the meters helped me even recognize that. i quickly became aware that I couldn't figure out how to fix it with my mixing and plugins, etc., which is why I posted to this forum. I knew something else was wrong and couldn't figure it out.

Best thing I ever did with this mix was ask for help. You guys have been great: I didn't understand how to fix it cuz I didn't get what was wrong. I feel like I'm starting to get it. This thread has helped me look beyond just the vocals and look at the mix in a different way. I say "starting" to get it cuz it's kind of intangible for me still; it'll make more sense after I hear the mixes that will be coming shortly.

Good stuff.
 
I put quotes around "destructively" because I understood that it probably wouldn't be changing the original files, and more likely just making new files.
So, would the idea be that I should make them all 44.1, and then render all files to 44.1?
You should just leave it at this point. It's not actually hurting anything. In future, probably just pick a rate and stay there.
 
I haven't looked at the files, but the thing that stuck out in the discussion was the fact that there were some really hot tracks. So, to OP, how do you handle that? Starting with a few hot tracks makes it easy to start pulling other tracks up, and then, voila, no headroom, so everything is squashed.

Do you use "clip gain" or a plugin or some track gain setting to get all your tracks to around -18dB before you do *anything* else? That's about the only way to give yourself room to work. This can require using clip gain (or similar) aggressively for poorly tracked sources. The main thing is don't touch those compressors until you've got a static mix that holds together and still has a lot of headroom on the mix/main/stereo-out bus.
 
...but which way do I go? 48s to 44 or vv? I thought (obviously incorrectly) that you wouldn't want to convert, since REAPER renders on the fly, and cuz then when you render the project you're converting again. It's my understanding that converting sampling rates downgrades the sound quality and you want to do it as few times as possible. So that's where I thought the destructive piece takes place.

Nope...there is no "downgrading" really...it's just numbers...nothing you're going to hear, especially when going up from a lower to higher rate...you just end up with some "empty" extra data attached in the higher rate file.
If you have like 192 kHz and you down-sample to 44.1...you might(?) notice something on the very, very, very fine details, but I doubt it...and consider that what we all view as "lossless" conversion, it's CD quality, which is 44.1 kHz/16bit. Also, your DAW is running internally at 32 bits, but that goes down to 16 when you convert for most common audio files that everyone listens to.
The differences between 48 and 44.1 are meaningless...though I prefer to stay with 48 because 1.) it does capture a "little" higher than 44.1...and 2.) it's the standard for video audio tracks, and I've done stuff with video, so it just made sense to go with that across the board.
What you're probably thinking about is when you convert back-n-forth between analog and digital....there you could lose something with too many conversions, but even there going in/out a couple of times is not an issue. People often do that when they want to use some analog outboard gear with their digital tracks...so the audio goes back out, and then back in, being converted a couple of times.

The thing about using one sample rate is mostly for keeping things organized and all on the same page...plus once you convert and get new files at the correct sample rate...you remove that extra work from your DAW. Keep in mind that what Reaper does "on the fly" is still *converting*...and because it's "on the fly"...it has to constantly do that...every time you stop/start..etc.
I just do it once with an actual file conversion at the start of the project, and then there's no more of that happening "on the fly" as I work. There's nothing to be gained from "on the fly" resampling other than you have no new/extra files...but I actually prefer having the new file with new rate and the old file with original rate.

AFA the file naming...it doesn't matter as long as it makes sense to you.
That said...when you have a lot of tracks and you call them all EG1, 2, 3, etc...you have to remember what those numbers refer to.
For instance...some of your EG tracks are rhythm...but a couple of them are actually more "lead" like guitar tracks...so use the full space in the naming fields to be as descriptive as you can. Also, when it comes to actual file names, you can go pretty long with them, so you can really be descriptive...but I've seen some people get carried away with that, and the names are a mile long! :D
Another thing I do (and you probably do also) is use different colors to visually separate out the tracks...but I don't just pick random colors each time I start a project. Instead, I have designated colors for specific track types. I created my own custom color palette in my DAW, and I always use the same ones.
So as an example...my Kick drum tracks are always red....my Snare tracks always a bright green...I use dark blue shades for electric guitars and light blue shades for acoustic guitars....blue-green is for pianos/synths...purple for my organ tracks...etc....etc. Sometimes I run out of colors on my custom palette (it has room for 16 colors), but I still have access to the default color palette, and I can create any shade of new colors I want...so when I have odd tracks or more than what I can cover with my custom palette, I can pull from those.

If you come up with some DAW templates for how you set up tracks and assign things...the order on the screen (like my drums are always my top tracks, and so on)...it makes it easier for you as you work on new projects.

So back to your tracks...like I said, they could use some work, but that's for you do decide how much you want to do and how far back you want to go into redoing things. I think AFA the vocal track issues you were having with the loudness...that's going to be solved for the most part, and you can then proceed with that and the rest as is.
Not sure what the other guys are going to do or how deep they want to dig...but I don't really want to take over your project and redo tracks and completely change things and tweak them beyond what your doing. I just wanted to help you get on the right path, and then you pick up from there and work it.
That's the best way to learn. If we just redo everything for you, it might sound much better, but then it's not your project anymore. :)
 
I haven't looked at the files, but the thing that stuck out in the discussion was the fact that there were some really hot tracks. So, to OP, how do you handle that? Starting with a few hot tracks makes it easy to start pulling other tracks up, and then, voila, no headroom, so everything is squashed.

Do you use "clip gain" or a plugin or some track gain setting to get all your tracks to around -18dB before you do *anything* else? That's about the only way to give yourself room to work. This can require using clip gain (or similar) aggressively for poorly tracked sources. The main thing is don't touch those compressors until you've got a static mix that holds together and still has a lot of headroom on the mix/main/stereo-out bus.

Absolutely. The first step in my mix was gain staging. I started with raw tracks. No effects. Added the Britson channel to all racks, and Britson buss to all busses.

I used Britson to adjust the gain on all channels to -18 dB, with all track faaders at zero.

From there balanced all tracks by mixing to ear in mono before adding any effects.

Unortunately, I did record several tracks too hot: I recorded with as hot a signal as possible without clipping. I've since educated myself and have now adopted a practice of recording all signals to -18 dB.

Live and learn. Thinking seriously now about your comments about re-recording the tracks. Ugh. :)
 
I recorded with as hot a signal as possible without clipping.

Your main vocal track actually clipped/flat-topped in a couple of spots.
You should back things off quite a bit, rather than "hot as possible". Shoot for about -18 to -14 for your average level, and big peaks not higher than -8...and that's still pretty hot.
 
It was in the zip file of the REAPER project. But I'm attaching it here as well.
Might be a little off-topic, but maybe not.

I'm open to any feedback on my plug-in collection for this project. You might have other suggestions for me.

Most are freeware, but I think very solid freeware. I do like Waves' stuff but hate their limited licensing. I'm not sure what I think of CLA Vocals. I "like" it for a quick mix, but I think I do better accomplishing the same with my own plugs.

Thoughts? Suggestions?



View attachment 103378
 
Hey guys, I still want to take a crack at this, but I think Tesgin is having trouble packing and zipping the complete Reaper session with the files folder in order to send it. He's sent everyone else Wave files, but I want a copy of his actual DAW session with the drum plugin in it and routed. How does he save this, pack it, zip it and send it? I don't want wav prints of the drums stems, nor do I want the midi file by itself.

Has anyone shared a Reaper session before? Can someone point him to the steps to 'consolidate and save' (ableton) or 'save to new folder' (studio one) I've never had to do this from Reaper before, and its different on every DAW.
 
I'm open to any feedback on my plug-in collection for this project. You might have other suggestions for me.

Most are freeware, but I think very solid freeware. I do like Waves' stuff but hate their limited licensing. I'm not sure what I think of CLA Vocals. I "like" it for a quick mix, but I think I do better accomplishing the same with my own plugs.

Thoughts? Suggestions?
This is very much on topic.

I don't have any problems with your freeware, but you're in VERY bad need of two incredibly important compressors. You need a FET and an optical compressor plugin. For anyone mixing music, these are the two most important plugins in someones collection. They are essential for achieving polish and control. They glue, punch, grit, even-ness, energy to the entire mix. The other two compressors are VCA's (which your scarlet emulators will do) and a Vari-Mu (which isn't a must-have). Those are the four major compressor families to be aware of.

I use UAD, but most people can't afford them... I think some of the others in this group will be able to cost-efficient recommendations better than me. I used the Waves for years, you want the CLA classic compressors bundle. Its on sale right now for $99. Slate also has some acceptable ones. McDSP and PSP I think have some that could work.

I would also considering investing in a multi-band compressor. That would also be high on the priority list.

Even though this is on topic, I would start a new thread that says something like "help me improve my plugin library". Unless your on a deadline here, you may want to wait until you have the compressor situation sorted out before re-attempting this mix, because having one or two highly effective compressors to work with could really make a night-and-day difference here.
 
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Not trying to embarrass the OP, since this is just a impromptu helping hand situation...

Okay. Now I am embarrassed. Miroslav, you're absolutely right about the guitars being out of tune. I had to listen to the raw wave with no fx to hear it clearly. Ugh. I am usually such a stickler on that. It was particularly EG4, which is awful out-of tune. Sounds like the b-string. Terrible. I'm sorry for being so sloppy.

I actually started this song just goofing around (Bob Dylan vocals, the whole thing), but I got good feedback on it, and kind of liked it, so thought I'd spend some time on it. I didn't catch that. I will fix that and upload the fix.

Double-ugh.

Sorry.

Tesgin
 
Has anyone shared a Reaper session before?
It really is just Save As and then make sure the "Copy all media..." box is checked.

But that's not going to get you his plugins. It will reference all the plugins and have all their settings and as long as you've got all the same ones it'll just open and work. If you don't have an authorized copy Addictive Drums AND whichever kit he's loaded into it, you'll be kinda SOL. This pretty universally true. DAW projects can't include the plugins themselves. It would violate copyrights.
 
It really is just Save As and then make sure the "Copy all media..." box is checked.
Got it! Thanks. And now I know how to send it back to him too lol. If I used any plugins that weren't on his list I duplicated the track, then committed the plugins, then muted the duplicate. That way he can see what I used but he can also hear whats printed.

But that's not going to get you his plugins.
I have all his plugins, and I bought everything that XLN has ever published (went on sale Black Friday 3 years ago lol)


DAW projects can't include the plugins themselves.
...but they remember the keymaps, sample selections, and channel strip settings within Addictive. I do the same for people with Battery, BFD, Geist, BPM, Maschine, Spark and Toontrack... its the main reason I carry all the major drum libraries ;)
 
Here it is. I can't figure out how to embed it on this forum.

View attachment Amazing Grace, Amazing Love demoMix AudioCentrik 8.13.2018.mp3

Hey Tesgin, was totally thinking Audio Adrenaline on this one!! lol. Good ole' nostalgic CCM. Some of the guitar parts were unsalvageable so I dumped them. The whole track is mixed with 3 plugins. Classic compressors, and Scheps omni, and the stock Reaper EQ. I used one of the VST verbs you had on your list. There were 2 that I used that you don't have. I stuck an auotuner on the vocal and a David Eden amp simulator on the bass.

...the bass isn't translating real well on small speakers. I had some trouble with the translation aspects. I rely pretty heavily on MaxxBass, Lo-air, the Neve 1073, and Boz Labs mongoose for making it cut through evenly and have presence on a laptop or iPhone. But they should sound decent on any set of studio monitors. I could have kept playing with it, but I needed to get home for dinner... if I had more time I'd have duplicated the vocal, run it through the Scuffham amp sim and used it to create some more density and width. I probably also would have duplicated the guitars and layers them other Scuffham amps to add more height to the rhythm guitar and ultimately make them sound less virtual instrument-like. I'll send the session back tomorrow when I go back to the office :) Fun track man!
 
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If I used any plugins that weren't on his list I duplicated the track, then committed the plugins, then muted the duplicate.

Jonathan, what you can do for those tracks in REAPER is freeze or render them: R-click on the track and select Render/freeze tracks and then select either Render tracks to stereo stem tracks or Freeze tracks to stereo stem. They're both virtually identical except one hides the original tracks with settings and plugs, the other mutes it. In any case, I can hear the product of either of those without needing your plugin. I hear the rendered stem. If I purchase your plugins (I do plan on purchasing the Waves Classic Compressor Bundle), I'll be able to open it with your plugins.

Of the two, probably the better for my purposes would be for you to use the render instead of freeze (if I unfreeze your track, the rendered stem is gone and I can't recreate it – well, it'd still be in the audio folder, but no longer in the project itself).

TB
 
Here it is. I can't figure out how to embed it on this forum.

View attachment 103387

Hey...if you guys are good with that...then no reason for me do anything more with it...and I wasn't planning to re-record the tracks, but whatever.
It's sounds good...he's happy...done. :)

Oh...by the way, with the redone, rocked-up guitar tracks, now it sounds like a Lou Reed song. :D :cool:

 
Here it is. I can't figure out how to embed it on this forum.

View attachment 103387

Hey Tesgin, was totally thinking Audio Adrenaline on this one!! lol. Good ole' nostalgic CCM. Some of the guitar parts were unsalvageable so I dumped them. The whole track is mixed with 3 plugins. Classic compressors, and Scheps omni, and the stock Reaper EQ. I used one of the VST verbs you had on your list. There were 2 that I used that you don't have. I stuck an auotuner on the vocal and a David Eden amp simulator on the bass.

...the bass isn't translating real well on small speakers. I had some trouble with the translation aspects. I rely pretty heavily on MaxxBass, Lo-air, the Neve 1073, and Boz Labs mongoose for making it cut through evenly and have presence on a laptop or iPhone. But they should sound decent on any set of studio monitors. I could have kept playing with it, but I needed to get home for dinner... if I had more time I'd have duplicated the vocal, run it through the Scuffham amp sim and used it to create some more density and width. I probably also would have duplicated the guitars and layers them other Scuffham amps to add more height to the rhythm guitar and ultimately make them sound less virtual instrument-like. I'll send the session back tomorrow when I go back to the office :) Fun track man!

Well there you go... That pretty much covers how I would have approached this jkuehlin. If a paid gig I would edit and do much more but I think your example will show Tesgin the right direction to go moving forward with his own mixes. Well done man! And, I get a break. lol! :)
 
Jonathan,

Just listened to your mix. I absolutely love what you did especially on the drums and bass. They sparkle. Your mix on the bass is sweet. The nuances of the strings on the frets even come thru. My mix didn't get any of that. The drums are quite powerful. The kick has more umph, the snare more presence and snap. You also softened the harshness of the ride and omitted it altogether in parts (e.g., verses). I'm eager to see your project files to understand how you did that. Any comments here on that? That foundation makes a huge difference to my ears.

I'm curious about the guitar parts that were unsalvageable. I'll PM you to try to figure that out. I downloaded it from the links at post 52 and opened it in REAPER and all worked. Also, they would be in the other link that has the tracks (e.g., the Lead Guitar).

TB
 
Hey...if you guys are good with that...then no reason for me do anything more with it...and I wasn't planning to re-record the tracks, but whatever.
It's sounds good...he's happy...done. :)

No, no, NO! :) Miroslav, I'd LOVE to see what you'd do differently! I'm soaking this up. It's not about wanting to just get a final mix, it's about learning how you guys mix, what you'd do differently, how you build your chains, what plugins you use and why, how you "think" and how you approach a project like this.

What started out for me as a "simple" question on why I'm having problems with my dynamic range has become an invaluable tutorial on how I need to approach my mix differently altogether. This has been great (I trust not only for me, but for others as well).

So, if you're willing, I'd still be VERY interested in how you'd mix this. HOWEVER, that said, please do not misinterpret my saying that as having to do with any sense of entitlement, or any presumptuousness on my part. :) It's only about being blown away with what I'm learning, and hoping and trusting that this is valuable not only to me but to others reading the thread.

Still, I do understand it's a time investment, and you and others have already invested so much in this thread already. Much, much appreciated.

Please feel obligation or pressure whatsoever, and certainly no lack of gratitude, but I guess I just want you to know I'd still be quite interested in what you, and Jimmy, and anyone else, would do with this piece, and how you did it.

Tesgin
 
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