Mixing Question: Problems getting healthy dynamics range, re: vocals

If you're struggling with dynamic range (i.e., LRA vs. loudness/LUFS), it can mean you've simply managed to compress all of your tracks a bit too much. Of course, as pointed out, some styles of music just don't have a lot of dynamic range, and I'm always surprised by what the meters spit out about songs for that figure.

I sure wouldn't base a lot of decisions on what something I read said is a good range, but like a lot of things, it can't hurt to measure some reference material and see where they are landing. If your stuff is tighter than mastered mixes of the same style, or if you can't reach a target LUFS and still hit some peaks after limiting at -1dB, *then* you probably have a problem. I'd start but loosening up compression (attacks, ratios) on some tracks and see if you may have just dove in with that too soon (my usual laziness problem).
 
Huh? :confused:
Not sure what you're trying to say here...or why? :)

Just kidding man! I am so good at Melodyne I should get paid for tuning vocals. Oh wait, I do...

Just think of you as more of a 'purist'? Is that a word?

I needed to throw out that blanky anyway... :)

Cheers man!
 
If you're struggling with dynamic range (i.e., LRA vs. loudness/LUFS), it can mean you've simply managed to compress all of your tracks a bit too much. Of course, as pointed out, some styles of music just don't have a lot of dynamic range, and I'm always surprised by what the meters spit out about songs for that figure.

I sure wouldn't base a lot of decisions on what something I read said is a good range, but like a lot of things, it can't hurt to measure some reference material and see where they are landing. If your stuff is tighter than mastered mixes of the same style, or if you can't reach a target LUFS and still hit some peaks after limiting at -1dB, *then* you probably have a problem. I'd start but loosening up compression (attacks, ratios) on some tracks and see if you may have just dove in with that too soon (my usual laziness problem).

Not sure anything was compressed in that mix from my listen. Either that or wrong use of compression.

It is so hard to tell without the tracks in front of me. The mix sounds off to me tho. Could be good but it not.

No offense Tesgin, but it needs work before you worry about output levels. It just not ready yet. If it were, you would not be asking these questions.
 
Just think of you as more of a 'purist'? Is that a word?

Oh. :)

Well...I don't care for *auto* tune of vocals, where people just slap it across a track and that's it.
I do however use Waves Tune, and now with Samplitude ProX 3, Melodyne is also included, but I have yet to use it.

I've posted my Waves Tune process awhile back a couple of times. There's a specific way to do it so that you're NOT just running it across the whole track, the way they tell you, and so that you have better options for being more selective with it.
That said...I'll pitch correct maybe 10% of my vocal tracks, and with that I mean it's only applied to about 10% of individual words/phrases....the rest are never touched with pitch correction.

There's a difference between being a total purist...and a realist. ;)
I can do the purist thing when it works and when my skills allow it...but there are times when you need a helping hand, which is why I have no problem with editing and comping as needed. I may take a purist approach to tracking something, but if reality calls for some tweaks, I don't have a problem doing them.

I think also my manner of tracking overall, would be lean more to "purist"...though I don't try to say that I am or really focus on it.
I mean, I still like to actually track instruments and capture the sound at that time, and not depend a lot on layers and layers of post-processing to get a sound. Sure, processing is needed for things, but not when it's like a crutch...like a "blanket"...:p... if that makes sense.

Who are you, anyway...Linus? :D
 
Oh. :)

Well...I don't care for *auto* tune of vocals, where people just slap it across a track and that's it.
I do however use Waves Tune, and now with Samplitude ProX 3, Melodyne is also included, but I have yet to use it.

I've posted my Waves Tune process awhile back a couple of times. There's a specific way to do it so that you're NOT just running it across the whole track, the way they tell you, and so that you have better options for being more selective with it.
That said...I'll pitch correct maybe 10% of my vocal tracks, and with that I mean it's only applied to about 10% of individual words/phrases....the rest are never touched with pitch correction.

There's a difference between being a total purist...and a realist. ;)
I can do the purist thing when it works and when my skills allow it...but there are times when you need a helping hand, which is why I have no problem with editing and comping as needed. I may take a purist approach to tracking something, but if reality calls for some tweaks, I don't have a problem doing them.

I think also my manner of tracking overall, would be lean more to "purist"...though I don't try to say that I am or really focus on it.
I mean, I still like to actually track instruments and capture the sound at that time, and not depend a lot on layers and layers of post-processing to get a sound. Sure, processing is needed for things, but not when it's like a crutch...like a "blanket"...:p... if that makes sense.

Who are you, anyway...Linus? :D

HAHA! More like Pigpen actually if you saw my work jeans...

I rarely even 'comp' vocal tracks. I get it right 'emotionally' as best as the performer can do. Many times there are tears and bonding in studio with the good ones. What I don't ever wish to do is make a singer fake the emotion again after it happens. Most singers are tough skinned and take a bit of time to get to their soul. If that makes sense...

If the emotion is there, then hell yeah I use Melodyne. Nothing can fix a shitty vocalist. But then nothing can replace raw emotion. The balance is placed there.

You really should work with Melodyne Miro. It WAY better/ than any other pitch correction software as far as being obvious that it was used. I am talking about the full version though. The one that can change a single guitar note in a live recording. Not the basic version included with Studio One or whatever has it as a plugin.
 
Hi Tesgin...

Its a good thing Miroslav asked you to post that mix. I was about to do the same until I saw you had already linked to it.

First of all, we need to completely forget about any articles you've read on the topic of LUFS or dynamic range for a little bit. None of it applies to this.

So what's going on here is there are some major dynamics management issues with how the layers of the mix are structured. This is NOT an issue that has anything do with dynamic range. It has everything to do with dynamics processing, and the way the EQ was managed. The dynamic range problems are a symptom, the two other issues are the cause. Basically, your vocal is having a hard time finding adequate dynamic range because the foundation you've given it to sit on is really unstable. This is creating abrupt drops in vocals in some places, where the vocal is buried then surges way too far forward. I would go back and re-assess the relationship between the kick, snare, bass and whatever cymbal the drummer is riding in certain parts of the track. I would also strip the vocal of any effects that are on it until you can figure out a way to rebuild the signal chain. It sounds like you have some kind of room or doubler effect on the vocal and its really hurting it. You're going to have to use some very aggressive compression on the vocal here, but that's ok and perfectly normal in this genre.

Its really hard to say how to go about doing this without having the session infront of me, but there's 2 ways you can do this. You could scrap the entire mix and rebuild it from the foundation (the kick, snare, cymbals, bass, and only one guitar). And perhaps some of us could talk you through it from there. Or you could start by modifying the vocal chain so it places you in a better position to decide weather to re-shoot the vocal THEN rebuild the mix. There is no one-off solution or formula any of us can give you to make this work, because the tone and dynamics management problems prevalent through many different parts of that mix.

If you want to go after the vocal right off the cuff, I would start by autotuning it, because the missed notes are distracting. I would immediately saturate, then anchor it with an aggressive Optical compressor running as high as 10 to 15 db of GR with a fast attack and fast release. I'd run a transient designer after it to make up for some of the lost detail, then I'd probably place a second FET style compressor behind this with medium attack and slightly slower release. By that point you should be able to hear it clearly and keep it from disappearing on you.

Wow. Thank you for this. A ton of feedback for me here. This is great.

I'm wondering if it might make sense for me to post a link to the mix sans vocals, to get your feedback very specifically on pieces I can start on before working on the vocals. That makes sense to me that it's in the mix (dynamics and eq) where my problem lies. When I listen to the mix without vocals, I actually like it. But your feedback, and miroslavs, could help me get a better foundation.

So, when you say "scrap the entire mix" are you talking re-recording all the guitars, bass, drums, etc.? (please say "no"!), or do you mean literally scrap the mix (eq, effects, compression, etc., etc.) and just start from scratch?

So, my vocal chain, as I look at it, does have too much going on. There's nothing on the vox track itself other than a Britson Channel, mainly for gain staging. But the vox goes to a vocal bus that has a Waves CLA Vocals plug-in (adding EQ, compression, light reverb, delay and detuning).

Then I have some light EQ (Melda's MEqualizer), and compression. However, I also have some sends: a Parallel bus with saturation, a plate reverb (Cockos reaverb with an impulse reverb) and a slap delay (≈130 ms). So, that's what's going on on the vocals. Yeah, way too much, huh?

Bass is live. Drums are addictive drums, with some compression on the kick and some parallel processing adding saturation and compression and a touch of verb.

So, where should I start?

THANK YOU!
 
Wow. Thank you for this. A ton of feedback for me here. This is great.

I'm wondering if it might make sense for me to post a link to the mix sans vocals, to get your feedback very specifically on pieces I can start on before working on the vocals. That makes sense to me that it's in the mix (dynamics and eq) where my problem lies. When I listen to the mix without vocals, I actually like it. But your feedback, and miroslavs, could help me get a better foundation.

So, when you say "scrap the entire mix" are you talking re-recording all the guitars, bass, drums, etc.? (please say "no"!), or do you mean literally scrap the mix (eq, effects, compression, etc., etc.) and just start from scratch?

So, my vocal chain, as I look at it, does have too much going on. There's nothing on the vox track itself other than a Britson Channel, mainly for gain staging. But the vox goes to a vocal bus that has a Waves CLA Vocals plug-in (adding EQ, compression, light reverb, delay and detuning).

Then I have some light EQ (Melda's MEqualizer), and compression. However, I also have some sends: a Parallel bus with saturation, a plate reverb (Cockos reaverb with an impulse reverb) and a slap delay (≈130 ms). So, that's what's going on on the vocals. Yeah, way too much, huh?

Bass is live. Drums are addictive drums, with some compression on the kick and some parallel processing adding saturation and compression and a touch of verb.

So, where should I start?

THANK YOU!

From the beginning... AD will screw you from the start if you don't treat them like a real drum kit. I could go on but I need to tuck my daughter in for the night...

Cheers!
 
Thanks,Keith.

Actually, the loudness range is fine until I add the vox. That's when the trouble begins.

But then I'm getting some excellent feedback on problems in the mix, which were generated by my initial concern about the dynamic range. Makes sense to me. Just hard to know where to start.

Tesgin
 
HAHA! More like Pigpen actually if you saw my work jeans...

I rarely even 'comp' vocal tracks. I get it right 'emotionally' as best as the performer can do. Many times there are tears and bonding in studio with the good ones. What I don't ever wish to do is make a singer fake the emotion again after it happens.

My approach is to run 3-5 takes in rapid succession. Once I get the track setup, I just go...I don't even stop to listen to them individually.
I find that holds the emotion throughout, and then it's really a matter of picking the best sections out of several nearly identical takes.

It doesn't work if there's a longer pause in-between successive takes.

AFA Melodyone...well, Waves Tune does pretty much the same thing, and I know some folks prefer one over the other because each has its flavor of artifacts that it can impart on some things, but it's minor stuff between them.
I don't use it all that much anyway...so I can get what I want from it. At some point I'll sit down and compare the two.
 
Not sure anything was compressed in that mix from my listen. Either that or wrong use of compression.

It is so hard to tell without the tracks in front of me. The mix sounds off to me tho. Could be good but it not.

No offense Tesgin, but it needs work before you worry about output levels. It just not ready yet. If it were, you would not be asking these questions.

BTW, the project is mixed in REAPER. I'd be glad to share stems if anyone would be open to walking me thru this?

TB
 
BTW, the project is mixed in REAPER. I'd be glad to share stems if anyone would be open to walking me thru this?

I don't use Reaper...but that doesn't matter. What stems do you have? Individual tracks are better, but let's see what you have.
I'm tired of listening to the mix I'm working on...so a can take a break with something different.

Oh...since you now have 10 posts...you should be able to include links without any problem.
 
Wow. Thank you for this. A ton of feedback for me here. This is great.
No problem. Here to help.
I'm wondering if it might make sense for me to post a link to the mix sans vocals, to get your feedback very specifically on pieces I can start on before working on the vocals. That makes sense to me that it's in the mix (dynamics and eq) where my problem lies. When I listen to the mix without vocals, I actually like it. But your feedback, and miroslavs, could help me get a better foundation.
That wouldn't do much good. I can hear a lot of the things going on behind the vocals but its difficult to suggest a correction without a little more info.
So, when you say "scrap the entire mix" are you talking re-recording all the guitars, bass, drums, etc.? (please say "no"!), or do you mean literally scrap the mix (eq, effects, compression, etc., etc.) and just start from scratch?
Ooooh! Sorry. I meant the mix. I won't jump to conclusions and insist the entire thing needs to be re-tracked until we're certain that its beyond repair, and we're far from that conclusion at this point. I would try and fix the mix first, as the mix issues (not performance issues) seemed to be where you were reaching out for help. You original post implied you were satisfied with the music, just struggling to get the vocals to sit a little better.
So, my vocal chain, as I look at it, does have too much going on. There's nothing on the vox track itself other than a Britson Channel, mainly for gain staging. But the vox goes to a vocal bus that has a Waves CLA Vocals plug-in (adding EQ, compression, light reverb, delay and detuning).
Ok... hold up a sec. Do you mean on a parallel bus? That was not how that plugin was designed to be used. I understand that there's no correct incorrect way to use that CLA waves, but you're probably doing some damage if you're running it in parallel using a bus. Lets do this. First read this article I wrote about that plugin, take a quick listen through the audio clips, then come back and continue reading here:

A little trick with the Waves CLA plugins - Recording, Mixing and Producing - indie recording depot

If you want to use this plugin on your vocal its going to take some gymnastics but its possible. But looking at what you've told me next, I think its best to remove this plugin for now. The CLA plugin is great, but it it forces all other plugins to work along side it on its own terms and conditions. Sometimes those conditions are not ideal for the track. This is an all-or-nothing mix decision.

Then I have some light EQ (Melda's MEqualizer), and compression. However, I also have some sends: a Parallel bus with saturation, a plate reverb (Cockos reaverb with an impulse reverb) and a slap delay (≈130 ms). So, that's what's going on on the vocals. Yeah, way too much, huh?

So you have gain/filter -> Melda EQ -> Compression? No... that's not way too much. Its not enough! From there you went parallel to CLA, and parallel to saturation, and parallel to plate, and parallel to slap? Ok... we've gotta get rid of that CLA plugin, its a terrible fit for this particular job.

Ok... rule of thumb... don't run your saturation in parallel. Run it right on the track, and you want it towards the beginning of the chain. Especially with a vocal. What are you using to saturate?

I agree with the decision to run the plate parallel. Do you have any other options for your plate reverb? And do you know how to time the decay of the plate to the tempo of the song?

The trick to getting a slap to work is knowing how to make it sound like a slap. If you don't, then you just have a fast delay. I have the UAD echoplex, and a number of tape machine plugins. But if you don't, you can run a lo-fi or a saturation sim after the delay in the plugin chain and it usually does the trick.

You'll probably end up needing a de-esser somewhere in this chain too. When you start to layer your compressors, you start to needing to control sibilance in the 6-8k range.

Do you have an 1176 or LA2A emulator?

Bass is live.
What was the signal chain?

Drums are addictive drums, with some compression on the kick and some parallel processing adding saturation and compression and a touch of verb.
Addictive Drums "2"? Good. That's an insanely powerful and capable drum engine. I like to start in Addictive by disabling every single effect in the entire preset. Matter of fact, my presets all have the EQ/comp/noise/saturation modules turned off and the effects sends muted. I start from there. Even with those modules turned off, the drums samples are still heavily compressed. The drawback to processing inside Addictive is that you don't have a lot of options or control over the compressors. The EQ is somewhat adequate (though I hate the interface). I would start by setting up a multi-out signal path to your DAW. Take every single mic including your room mics and bring them into your mixer. That particular track is going to need some heavy automation because there's certain elements you'll want to push back and pull forward at different times during the mix. It is MUCH easier to automate drum kit pieces that are on a fader than to try and automate a parameter inside Addictive.

By the way...I like the song and appreciate the message :) Again, happy to help you get this one worked out.

So, where should I start?

Lets start from the ground up and get your drums behaving the way we want them too, then I'll show you some tricks for thickening, fattening up that bass and getting it to cut though on small speakers if you have time.
 
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I have a suggestion.

Make a copy. Keep what you have now. On the copy take everything and I do mean EVERYTHING off of all the tracks. Now using only the volume controls and the pan, place everything in the mix where it sounds like it should be.

It sounds to me like you have spent a LOT of time with each instrument without considering how it works against the other stuff. Nothing is helping anything else and therefore nothing is supporting the song itself.

And tune and time the vocals. And time the drums. Just because you have access to plug-ins and effects doesn't mean the have to be on the recording. And you're WAY overthinking this.

Consider the copy a working copy. Don't try and duplicate what you have already done. Above all else.....serve the song. But first let's see how big the canvass is you'll be painting on. Volume. Pan. Gainstage.
 
I have a suggestion.

Make a copy. Keep what you have now. On the copy take everything and I do mean EVERYTHING off of all the tracks. Now using only the volume controls and the pan, place everything in the mix where it sounds like it should be.

I think he needs to do more than this. I believe the balance problems actually start from inside his presets on XLN Addictive drummer. I don't know if he has enough control over them without re-routing the drum mix into a multi-out feed then disabling the kit piece processing inside the drum engine.
 
BTW, the project is mixed in REAPER. I'd be glad to share stems if anyone would be open to walking me thru this?

TB

Can you send me the MIDI file as well as each individual track?

Gonna leave it at that without promises...
 
Wow. I'm blown away by your help and tips. I mean, as in excited. I feel like I'm gonna learn some good stuff here. So, let's see ...


Ok... hold up a sec. Do you mean on a parallel bus? That was not how that plugin was designed to be used. I understand that there's no correct incorrect way to use that CLA waves, but you're probably doing some damage if you're running it in parallel using a bus. Lets do this. First read this article I wrote about that plugin

Y'know, my bad. I wasn't clear. It actually is NOT a parallel bus: it's actually in a folder. In REAPER you can create a track and define it as a folder, and then place other tracks beneath it. It functions basically as a submix buss. So, to clarify, the vocals folder has Britson Buss, CLA Vocals, MEqualizer and Scarlett Compressor as plug-ins, with sends to a PBuss (all tracks except drums go to PBuss, which has Saturation Knob and Scarlett Compressor on it), a slap delay buss, and the plate vocals buss (ReaDelay with a reverb impulse).

(Thanks for the article on CLA Vocals. Haven't had a chance to read yet, but I will)

So you have gain/filter -> Melda EQ -> Compression? No... that's not way too much. Its not enough! From there you went parallel to CLA, and parallel to saturation, and parallel to plate, and parallel to slap? Ok... we've gotta get rid of that CLA plugin, its a terrible fit for this particular job.

I have no problem getting rid of CLA Vox. Will do. So, yes, MEq on to compression on submix/folder, and then to PBuss and sends as described above.

Ok... rule of thumb... don't run your saturation in parallel. Run it right on the track, and you want it towards the beginning of the chain. Especially with a vocal. What are you using to saturate?

Interesting. I hadn't heard that. I got the PBuss/Saturation tip from Graham Cochran (Recording Revolution). He suggests running drums to their own GritBuss and all other instruments to a PBuss with saturation.

I'm using SoftTube's Saturation Knob for saturation on the PBuss. I often also use Shattered Glass's SGA1566, but it's such a memory hog I didn't use it in this project. I had it in but disable it: sounds great but keeps crashing REAPER. Ugh.

Do you have any other options for your plate reverb? And do you know how to time the decay of the plate to the tempo of the song?

I actually love the sound of Cockos' reverb plugins (without impulses). I also have Oril River by Denis Tihanov which is quite nice, and OldSkoolReverb (Voxengo), which would be my favs. Yup, I'm good with tempo matching these.

Graham Cochran and Joe Bilder rx not relying so much on reverb for vox, but favor a good slap delay instead. Do you agree?

You'll probably end up needing a de-esser somewhere in this chain too. When you start to layer your compressors, you start to needing to control sibilance in the 6-8k range.

Do you have an 1176 or LA2A emulator?

You are correct on the de-esser. I do not have that in the chain. No, I do not have an 1176 or LA2A emulator. For compression I've been using Scarlett Red, or ReaComp, both which sound quite decent IMHO, but are not 1176 or LA2A emulators. I also love TDR's Kotelnikov, but I usually use that on the master buss.

Ahh. The bass is an Epiphone recorded DI, with the signal chain: Britson Channel>Guitar Rig 4 (Bass Pro Amp)>MEq>Scarlett Compressor>bx sub filter (which I remixed last night for a tighter and brighter bass)

Addictive Drums "2"? Good. That's an insanely powerful and capable drum engine. I like to start in Addictive by disabling every single effect in the entire preset. Matter of fact, my presets all have the EQ/comp/noise/saturation modules turned off and the effects sends muted. I start from there. Even with those modules turned off, the drums samples are still heavily compressed. The drawback to processing inside Addictive is that you don't have a lot of options or control over the compressors. The EQ is somewhat adequate (though I hate the interface). I would start by setting up a multi-out signal path to your DAW. Take every single mic including your room mics and bring them into your mixer. That particular track is going to need some heavy automation because there's certain elements you'll want to push back and pull forward at different times during the mix. It is MUCH easier to automate drum kit pieces that are on a fader than to try and automate a parameter inside Addictive.

Yes, AD2. I actually did set up multi-out sends of each piece of the kit to its own track in REAPER. I was using the internal default routing of AD2 with all sound coming from the internal master buss. But I also did a lot of routing, saturation and eq (esp on the kick): so I routed each piece of the kit as well as overhead/room/etc. to its own track. The Kick track (NOT in AD2, but the track it's routed to in REAPER) is re-EQ'd (Melda) and has compression as direct fx, with sends going to a KickBuss in parallel, which has more dramatic EQ and compression. All elements of the kit -- each REAPER Track -- is then sent to a Grit Bus, which as EQ, then saturation, then compression, with a reverb send.

I remixed it last night to send the AD2 REAPER tracks not only to the grit buss, but also directly to the master out as well.



So, when you're talking automating the drums, it sounds like you automate using the DAW faders? Is there a way to automate using velocity envelopes? My understanding is that AD2 triggers different samples based on velocity (I'm not sure on that). The idea being changing not only the volume of each piece, but also the samples triggered. It sure would sound a lot easier to do using the DAW faders! So, you're not only automating the master drum buss that they're all routed to, you are independently routing the pieces separately, yes?

And would you be opposed to still using AD2's Master out, maybe at a lower volume, as a PBuss?

Lets start from the ground up and get your drums behaving the way we want them too, then I'll show you some tricks for thickening, fattening up that bass and getting it to cut though on small speakers if you have time.

"If you have time," he says! This is great. I'll MAKE time! Thank you.

So, tell me how you want me to start on the drums, and how to move forward. So, yes, the multi-outs are already in the project. I'll kill the master out inside AD2 for now. I'll save as a new project altogether. Should I remove all fx and sends and busses for the drums? I.e., straight drum tracks in the DAW, no internal routing from inside AD2, no master, etc.? Then what from there?

Tesgin
 
Can you send me the MIDI file as well as each individual track?

Gonna leave it at that without promises...

I'd be glad to. Please clarify: are you talking separate MIDI drum tracks for each channel? Or just the MIDI track with all combined (I'm not sure I know how to separate them out)? Or do you mean the audio tracks of the guitars, bass, vocals? Do you, perchance, work in REAPER? I'd be glad to send the whole project.

Tesgin
 
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