Mic Bleed

Agreed, Grim.

The mic on the left most tom is pointing straight at the high hat. Rotating in 90 degrees around the drum head should put the HH out of the polar pattern of the mic.

Of course, there is the old 60s-70s trick of removing the bottom head from the tom and micing from the bottom. I was watching a broadcast of California Jam, and it looked like a lot of time there was a 421 stuck up under the toms.

I've also recently started using Audix mics and the bleed from hi-hat bleed into the tom mics is horrible. So at this point, I have to EQ the bleed out of the tom tracks and not sure what the best type of EQ to apply here.
 
I cannot help thinking it would make a good moniker for the lead singer of a rabid punk band!
Mike Bleed ? You're right !
I went to school with a guy called Barry Vile. It was just before the punk era but the funny thing is that no one made fun of his name or an issue out of it because he was such a nice guy. He was in the year above me and he used to hang out with all the smokers and bullies and ne'er do wells but he always treated the kids in my year so nicely and spoke to us politely and with genuine interest, at least over the two years I was at that school, unlike his year mates who were to be feared or hung close to those that were to be feared and tried to get you to fear by association. Barry wasn't a trouble maker at all. He was just so kind ! But when I started hearing of "Johnny Rotten," "Sid Vicious," "Rat Scabies" and the like, I always thought Barry Vile would have made a great punk rock name.
Bleed by inappropriate dynamics? Inappropriate to whom exactly? Bleed is the engineers problem
I don't even think bleed is a problem. Excessive bleed that interferes is the problem. I used to have a big problem when I first started multi tracking drums but my problem was twofold ~ firstly I would get more bleed than I liked in the bass drum mic {in some instances the kick mic had better kit repesentation than the overheads !} and secondly the way two of my 3 drumming friends played. One would beat the kit like he hated it while the other would barely touch the snare, almost like he was a jewel thief breaking into a museum with touch sensitive laser alarms. All this in addition to the fact that I didn't have a clue what I was doing, which in many ways was the main obstacle.
It was however, a process of trial and error and eventually, I developed a way that took into account the way each guy played. I would often use an electric kick pedal for the thwacker {although I'd sometimes mic him as maturity brought better dynamics and balance to his playing} and I would place the overhead mics below the height of the cymbals. I stopped using a specific mic for the hat as I would overhead {well, underhead, actually} mic the drummer from behind the kit and made sure the snare mic was a dynamic well pointed away from the hats. Because I use an Arbiter Flat lites kit, I'd mic the toms from underneath, thereby cutting out any unwanted excess bleed from the hats.That was my contribution.
But the drummers sometimes had to curb their enthusiasm and "arty" light touches and play to the song, not their feelings and rights. I'd sort of explain {sometimes as we played and recorded} where the hard stuff needed to be and where it calmed down, kind of like a conductor. I always gave the drummer a lot of freedom of expression and encouraged them to think on the fly with regards to what they played and as time went on, the meeting of minds produced drum recordings that I had no problems at all with.
The musician should NOT have to modify technique to cope with mic technique that is compromised
Hmmmmm.....
Yes and no. If the mic technique is compromised, you're right to a large extent. But what if the way the instrument is played is such that however you set the mics, the recorded sound is problematic ? For example, say you have an acoustic guitarist or pianist that just has to sing and play at the same time but their style is one of moving all over the place and howling loudly at unexpected times with their mouth in places not even God anticipates ? And they complain that there's too much guitar/piano in their vocal track and too much vocal in the guitar/piano tracks ?

If the drummer is bashing the hats disproportionately to how he is hitting the snare on purpose, then it isn't a problem. That is an artistic choice and the drummer will expect the hat to be much louder than the snare. If he complains about the snare being too quiet, that's on him.
In your experience, do you find that many drummers are of the persuasion that the hats should be louder ? Or would that just be a thing according to the particular song in which they drum that way ?
Professional studio musicians tend to not have this problem, because they understand that they are responsible for the balance of the kit.
I must admit that of the drummers I've recorded, by far the most balanced was actually a guy that was a session musician, from Zambia. I never had to think or say "hit harder" or "man, not so hard !" He instinctively had a perfect balance on every part of the kit. Even when I was experimenting with using a suitcase as a bass drum {courtesy of Moresound !}, he was the only one that really got that sound that made me forget it was a suitcase.

Or hit everything equally as hard...
Well, that would be the sensible thing to do. But for some drummers, it doesn't work that way and it's not necessarily that they're shitty. It's quite interesting observing drummers and how each one approaches playing so differently. There are the all in wrestlers, the deft strokers, the ice skaters, the Mafia hit men, the ballet dancers, the weightlifters, the heavy footers, the pilots, the snare'ovators.......
I played a few times with my mate's brother {this mate's wife would sometimes record alto sax, oboe and piano for me on a few of my bits} and he would never play with drumsticks. He would only play with brushes. But he twisted the brushes into a fine point and beat the crap out of the drums. He had a powerful bass foot. It sounded wicked. First time we played, I was fearfully sceptical and thought he would sound like Goldilocks, all sweetness and light but he ended up sounding like the 3 bears !
I never quite got the whole playing style being an issue unless the drummer is just shitty. I have had in my studio, and was a drummer myself, who hit really hard. I never had an issue with bleed being a problem with metal drummers.

Did have a guy once that hit his snare like it was a ripe peach. Only triggers helped that one
In a way that was a question that contained its own reply.....even though it wasn't a question. :)
 
Hah! Never had an issue with bullies. I was always quite tall but by about 15 I was nearly the 6ft I am now (I put it down to Wheatabix and porrige!) One or two stroppy bstds would try their luck, don't know why? Head shorter than me. I just used to throw them in the bushes, never hit'em.

I was also taller then most of the "prefects"* and so I had little trouble from them either. I was also very strong and could haul my 11stone frame up a gym rope, no feet faster than anyone else in my class. Oh! WHERE did it all go?!!

*For the benefit of my colonial cousins...Prefects are 6 formers that are given special powers and didn't they like to exercise it!

Dave.
 
*For the benefit of my colonial cousins...Prefects are 6 formers that are given special powers and didn't they like to exercise it!
6th formers are like the American 11th and 12th grade.

Prefects are 6 formers that are given special powers and didn't they like to exercise it!
I went to school in Nigeria for my last 3 years of school and there, school only went up to class 5 which we call here year 11 {American 10th grade} so the prefects were selected in the final term of class 4 {which is an English year 10 and an American freshman 9th grade}. On that fateful morning that they were announced, the head teacher {whom we called the Principal} had them all stand out in front of the school and said in the most foreboding way that he was issuing them with what he termed "wide powers." Now, this guy was a psycho of the highest order {the day I went for an interview there, my first observation of the ways of the school was him caning this very small kid that had just arrived, like me, from England ~ and the kid hadn't even enrolled in the school yet !} and I looked at these prefects, some of whom were sort of my friends, and I saw their faces change. That experience actually later helped me understand how the Nazi thing became so widespread in 1930s Germany. That same day, a guy who I wasn't close with but was in my class and whom I was kind of friendly with, who was now a prefect, tried to stop me from going home as I was wearing trousers and classes 1-4 had to wear shorts {when going home, I'd often change into trousers}. This guy until that morning had been one of the arch trouble makers in the school, but now, was a prefect. At first, I thought he was joking when he told me to remove my trousers.
He wasn't. I didn't.
Needless to say, it wasn't just the heat of the Nigerian day that made me sweat through the rest of class 4 and much of class 5 !
Pretty much since then, whenever I've heard the word 'prefect' I'd think of two things: Aboro from the "Planet of the apes" TV series and those former buddies of mine that showed, in chilling and systematic detail, the art of power getting to one's head.
As far as I know, none of them suffered hat bleed into their tom mics.
 
There are a couple of interesting things about drum mic bleed IMO.
Firstly, before the late 70's mic bleed is all over recordings. Close mic's on every drum just wasn't a thing, room sound was what was desired. The dry drums with ambience added were relatively scarce until the late 70s early 80s.

Using multi mics created the problem of the image shifting when mics on outer drums or cymbals that were panned out and hit at the same time as a central element like kick, snare or hi tom.On many tracks whole drum kits are moved to one side, or the snare, kick and high hat actually "move" off center and back to center due to high hat mic output being put to one side so every time the hat is hit, it pulls the whole image that direction. Engine/producers/arrangers used this "problem" to add motion to a mix.


Of course gates and ducking can always be used to reduce the effect.
 
In your experience, do you find that many drummers are of the persuasion that the hats should be louder ? Or would that just be a thing according to the particular song in which they drum that way ? I must admit that of the drummers I've recorded, by far the most balanced was actually a guy that was a session musician, from Zambia. I never had to think or say "hit harder" or "man, not so hard !" He instinctively had a perfect balance on every part of the kit. Even when I was experimenting with using a suitcase as a bass drum {courtesy of Moresound !}, he was the only one that really got that sound that made me forget it was a suitcase.
The drummers that have this kind of problem simply don't think about the relative dynamics of the different instruments. (or of the song) They don't realize that it is their responsibility to 'mix' the kit to the song with their performance.

I've had a guy in a metal band walk up to me and say "sorry, I play with dynamics". I told him that wasn't a problem, as long as the dynamics fit the song. He was under the impression that jazz drummers were the end-all, be-all of drumming, and was trying to use jazz techniques in a situation where he was competing against a wall of Marshalls and SVTs. Needless to say, a lot of what he was doing was lost in the wash of guitars. Context is everything.
 
On many tracks whole drum kits are moved to one side, or the snare, kick and high hat actually "move" off center and back to center due to high hat mic output being put to one side so every time the hat is hit, it pulls the whole image that direction. Engine/producers/arrangers used this "problem" to add motion to a mix.


Of course gates and ducking can always be used to reduce the effect.

Actually, it's gating, compression or editing that causes the effect. If all the mics are open all the time and not individually compressed, any bleed is static and the image is stable. As soon as you dynamically change the level of any mic it opens the potential for a shifting image.

Just for a general reference, this is how I have a kit miced up, and I don't have any bleed problems. (The snare mic got pushed a little farther over the snare than usual in the first pic, so that's not entirely representative of the usual position.)

IMG_20200824_193256563.jpg

Image1.jpg
 
Secret weapon tom mics. You know what I mean! (Bouldersoundguy)

It's these kinds of choices backed by good knowledge of performance characteristics that will help every time.

The mics shown in Boulder Sounds pics are AKG D1000Es. On the rack toms. They are very low sensitivity and require some serious oomph from a mic pre. Plus they have a three position voicing switch which was brilliant. But for recording drums the initial transient is always going to be uber loud with a quickly declining tail or ring (hopefully...thats what the tuning is all about) . These will cut back on the 'bleed' from the hats. Also theres no hat mic but the placement, even though its in the null of the 57 on the snare, will give it plenty of close mic'd snap with what will be in the overheads. (Sm81's in XY)

Another observation of this pic is the use of "soft" cymbals. Looks like older A Zildjians. It's what I use in my room. More times than not a drummer comes in with cymbals that will cut through a stage volume of loud guitars and bass amps but in the controlled environment of a recording room, even one that isn't treated, they will cause more problems than create a tonal masterpiece of a song.

Another problem with the setup in the OPs pics, IF the mixer has a gain control and your mics are set like this, and you use too much gain on the channels, you will NEVER get a balance on the mics input capture.

EQ at this point can and most times does, add phase anomalies to each channel. Makes things worse in so many small but significant ways.
 
Here's a sample of the snare and rack tom tracks from the actual session in the lower photo of the two I posted above. The tom is the larger of the two rack toms in the kit, the one on the drummer's right. The smaller one didn't get played in the song I sampled. These samples are straight off the recording, no digital processing at all other than encoding 320k mp3 (except now that I think about it the pan law is set to -3dB, so they're 3dB below the actual record level). The only analog processing on the way to the DAW was a bit of channel eq on the Tascam M-2600 MkII. In the final mix I did not apply any gating and I did not edit out the portions between the actual tom hits, though I sometimes do edit tom tracks.

View attachment CCand360s snare iso.mp3

View attachment CCandthe360s tom iso.mp3
 

Theoretically both of these words are exactly the same and boulder's should be the correct full form of cavedog's with the ' replacing the 'e'.
But for some reason it never looks right to me. I always think it should be 'miked' instead of 'miced' which only seems to imply small rodents. And "mic'd" always seems right. 'Miked' couldn't be more incorrect but it just looks so right !
Wow, the problems that we have to encounter in recording !
 
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