Steenamaroo
...
Fair point.
There's still stuff that will cancel in stereo on monitors but not on cans but, true enough, if you're regularly mono checking I guess it doesn't matter much.
Industry professional reckons headphones are the future in mixing.
- Thread starter grimtraveller
- Start date
Fair point.
There's still stuff that will cancel in stereo on monitors but not on cans but, true enough, if you're regularly mono checking I guess it doesn't matter much.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
You're debating like 5 different sides of the headphone thing...I'm not even sure anymore what the point is.
Not sure what you mean about me "objecting on the grounds of cost"...??? Objecting to what...and what cost?
I'm saying that people opt for the convenience and price when they go with headphones...and not because they are comparable to a set of quality monitors.
The fact that it's a growing trend and that the video states that headphones are here to stay...doesn't change that.
It's go nothing to do with me being ill at ease about what someone else chooses, and frankly I could care less, because I know what I choose and why.
I'm simply stating why I think they make that choice...and in the case of headphones it would be the convenience and lower price.
There's no "objection on the grounds of cost"...if anything, I object to the whole thing being presented like some "fact or proof" when it's really just a 30 minute sales promo.
Your OP was that a pro was saying headphones were the new wave...and therefore it most be so.
I'm saying...he's just selling gear for Sweetwater.
TBH...I find that you're heavily wanting to believe in all the possibilities...based on one video promo...and you're presenting a lot of "what ifs" as your argument in support of headphones, but you seem to ignore what others are giving as actual proof/science of what can go wrong with using solely headphones for mixing.
Again...no one is saying you "can't"....were all just saying that there are issues, and that speakers are not plagued with those issues.
You can talk from some philosophical, artistic perspective...but it don't change the issues inherent with mixing on headphones exclusively.
That also doesn't mean you can't use them to check specific things, but again...checking is not the same as completely mixing with them.
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CoolCat
Well-known member
Room Simulation Techniques...I think that's a lot of the surge in headphone sales. The plugins that never really existed before now simulate hearing both speakers with both ears etc.. just saying monitors/rooms have a long long list of problems too. in my experience. Some headphone amps have the Crossfeed built in. and the Mono button.
see if that works. why not?
I agree mixing on 7506 tracking headphones doesn't work easily, did that too...but theres Headphone options available now.
It'd be interesting if someone who has both and decent mix skills could post two blindfold Mixes...
MIX A is Monitors / Room
MIX B is Headphone w/ Simulator "crossfeed"
MIX C is Closed backs
MIX D is Open Backs
MIX E is maybe doing both.... something else
could we tell the difference?
see if that works. why not?
I agree mixing on 7506 tracking headphones doesn't work easily, did that too...but theres Headphone options available now.
It'd be interesting if someone who has both and decent mix skills could post two blindfold Mixes...
MIX A is Monitors / Room
MIX B is Headphone w/ Simulator "crossfeed"
MIX C is Closed backs
MIX D is Open Backs
MIX E is maybe doing both.... something else
could we tell the difference?
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Call me a dick but I will never mix on headphones. It just doesn't work for me. I don't even have the desire to try other headphones and I am surely not going to use a speaker simulator for them.
Room treatment and good monitors just works for me. To each their own...
Same here.
It doesn't bother me that someone wants to use headphones...but having used headphones for mixing back in the day, I would never go back to that in favor of using speakers. AFA the "crossfeed" technology...I've tried that on a couple of devices, and didn't find that it really worked well, it was just more simulation processing. I ended up promptly returning the devices....though not just because of the "crossfeed", but it was an advertised bonus that didn't really sound all that good. I found it kinda weird.
I don't disagree that crappy monitors in a crappy room aren't something anyone would look forward to using...but I feel that simply abandoning the need to go in that direction in favor of headphones with simulated speaker/room processing, is really just a Band-Aid.
I've been seeing that trend more and more over the last 10 years...and it's been growing in-step with the boom in home/project studio recording.
What I'm talking about, is the explosion in marginal gear solutions... because the manufacturers learned quickly that the average Joe wasn't going to plunk down serious cash for mics, preamps, rack gear or decent monitors...and to take the time to set up a decent room.
So they took a different approach...market gear in away that makes it seem they don't have to, and that the high-end stuff was only needed as eye candy in the pro world.
It's been pretty obvious...and you even hear that from newbs/novices, who are convinced that proper gear and studio environments are really not that important...and that anyone can overcome that with a little work and replace it with much more inexpensive solutions.
That's what it's been all about...targeted manufacturing.
Now I don't say you always need to spend big money for everything...but with many of these easy, less expensive solutions, the laws of physics, acoustics and electronic design and engineering are denied to some degree.
CoolCat
Well-known member
do you use Amp simulator plugin's? compressor simulator plugins? eq simulating plugs?
I dont get whats the difference. Headphone ...room/speaker simulator plugins...
I did the box bedroom with 703 and corners with numerous monitors knowing it was never going to be EMI and Capitol worthy either...especially with my 8ft ceiling..lol
My mixes suck no matter what I use... so my "best" tools for playback are the Headphones...Open Backs.
ymmv....its not being a dick for not wanting to use plugins, some want all Tube Guitar amps etc.. or all Marshall amps and everyone else sucks thing.
Im total low usage below hobbyist recording these days, so I find it interesting the "working studios" dont want a pair of headphones on for 16hrs 4 days a week. Thats a whole different gig.
I dont get whats the difference. Headphone ...room/speaker simulator plugins...
I did the box bedroom with 703 and corners with numerous monitors knowing it was never going to be EMI and Capitol worthy either...especially with my 8ft ceiling..lol
My mixes suck no matter what I use... so my "best" tools for playback are the Headphones...Open Backs.
ymmv....its not being a dick for not wanting to use plugins, some want all Tube Guitar amps etc.. or all Marshall amps and everyone else sucks thing.
Im total low usage below hobbyist recording these days, so I find it interesting the "working studios" dont want a pair of headphones on for 16hrs 4 days a week. Thats a whole different gig.
snow lizard
Dedicated Slacker
I prefer to track vocals without headphones if I can. There's something about sticking an SM7 in front of the monitors that I really like. There's a tiny bit of bleed, but whatever. Last time I tracked vocals was on someone elses session and I used headphones.
Eh, what are you gonna do, you know?
That seems to be what some people are using the crossfeed thing for.
Eh, what are you gonna do, you know?
That seems to be what some people are using the crossfeed thing for.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
TBH...I don't use amp sims. I have them...some really good ones, but then, I have a bunch of really good amps, and I'm not that bothered by the "inconvenience" of having to mic up an amp, and look for that best position and all that. I absolutely love the tracking phase of any production...being able to hear the tracks come together and hear the song come to life. Capturing the sounds in the room.
AFA EQ and comp plugins...yes, I use them, but I also have a rack full of comps and EQs, and I mix out from the DAW through that gear. I find that the plugs are OK for "spot" processing...sometimes I might toss something across the whole track, but I prefer to run most tracks then through my rack gear too.
Also...it's a lot simpler to simulate an EQ or a comp...than it is to simulate the human listening experience in a real room, which is what the new room sim plugins for headphones are doing.
Just out of curiosity...how much do you feel your mixes have improved using the headphones?
Now here's another angle.
Even if you mix on headphones...unless you are doing only electronic/sampled music...you still have to track in the same room, and IMO, tracking is where it all happens, which I know is contrary to what a lot of folks think these days...that everything happens at the mix stage.
So even if you can manage to avoid a decent room environment for the mix stage, with proper acoustics...it's hard to also avoid it during tracking when using mics.
OK...I know the other big trend is to "close mic" everything...which then is supposed to take the room out of the equation, and probably does to a good degree...but then, all your tracks have that same feel, which may be exactly what you want...but in some ways it's also a handicap, just like always having to DI everything and then apply processing in the DAW, during the mixing...and now, using headphones and sims to create the "reality".
My desire (for my own approach) is to get things more to that "organic" recording/mixing experience. Maybe that's considered old-school...but I think if done well, it always has a more "natural reality" than when it's mostly simulated and done in the box, and then mixed on headphones with some simulated room processing.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Yeah...there are a lot of people who like that. Often with some vocalists that are new to recording, it can be a big help if they are having problems singing with the headphones.
I've used headphones for tracking for many years...and I've gotten to the point where I'm able to basically ignore the sound of the headphones.
What I mean is...I'm not that critical about it. I just want to be able to hear things enough to get all the cues...then I'll go sit down after a few passes and take off the headphones and listen to the playback on the speaker monitors before I decide if I need to make any adjustments.
Some people just get irritated with headphones when using them for the first time to record...they can't listen "beyond" them.
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
I agree and that's not really different from a number of other skills that have to be adjusted, for example, going from bass guitar to fretless to acoustic bass guitar to double bass. This is a hobby/jobby that's full of adjustments.
As an aside, long before I was aware of the practice of checking mixes on different speakers, I did that naturally anyway because I wanted to know how things sounded on my stereo {either via the cassette or CD}, walkman, and in the minibus I used to drive.
Totally. It's not that dissimilar to, say, the differences between miking an amp and going DI. I find them very different animals and don't approach them the same way. But the end result justifies the means.
It's advice that I can't see bringing any harm. And like all advice, is free.
I don't think it ever will. There may be times when headphone sales go bananas, there may be greater take ups in mixing phones. But I suspect that will only be a natural balancing. I think sheer human curiosity will lead people to explore all ways. Then, as with all things, people will settle into their preferences.
Well what's wrong with that ? A series of different replies outlining different sides of the subject came up. I found them stimulating. They sparked questions and trains of thought. People replied and further amplified.
That's conversation.
You hold headphone mixing as inferior. You actually called it that. You then made the connection between this inferior way of doing a mix and its convenience and cheapness. You didn't address the very real "what if ?" that some people might actually prefer headphone mixing and could be good at it.
That may well be true in many cases. And not so in others.
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
Firstly, the vid is about how much a basic studio may cost to set up. He's responding to a question he's been asked. You cannot keep price out of it. That's like keeping pregnancy out of a conversation on maternity wards.
Secondly I deliberately clipped the thing just to the item on headphones. Ironically, he mentions Audio technica ~ I already have a set of ATs. The blurb on the box says they're good for mixing. I've had them since 2015 and I've already stated that I prefer monitors though I do use them sometimes. Even more ironic, one of the brands he says he likes is one you say you'd like to get.
Thirdly, I was not presenting it as proof of anything. I would say the variety of replies in the thread demonstrates that the older idea of "you can't mix on headphones" no longer applies. And that industry pros are actually slightly slower on the uptake than home recorders have been for a long while.....but are equalizing a bit.
To say "it's just a 30 minute sales promo" misses a few points, actually and that is what causes one to wonder if there's more behind this. You say I'm debating on five sides, but you've raised, science, economics and commerce, cynicism, convenience, newbie ignorance, preference, superiority and inferiority. All are worthy of reply.
The OP does not make any definite assertions. It's put in deliberately flowery terms with a question designed to elicit responses and feelings.
So, that would invalidate everything he happens to say on the subject ? One can confidently dismiss and ignore because he obviously doesn't mean it, he's just being a good shill and picking up his $$$s ?
I happen to think what he says represents a seismic shift in standard thought and that standard thought leads to a specific strain of advice. It may eventually go nowhere. Who can tell ?
Wanting to believe sells me short, mate ! I do believe in all the possibilities. Long before I ever recorded anything, I was regaled by stories of the composers, artists, instrumentalists, managers, producers and engineers etc, that bucked whatever systems or theories were rigidly held at various points in history.
Furthermore, I'm of the opinion that speech is self revealing.....if a person says something, there's a whole world in there to think about and disseminate. And it's not a video promo. Come on, the guy has been asked how much it would cost to put a decent studio together. He mentions a few items and does so generically. In some instances, he gets a little more specific. But his opinion is important to me. As is yours. And everyone that has replied. Otherwise, I wouldn't bother.
I'm surprised Ashcat hasn't chimed in !
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
a]I have not ignored a single thing that's been said in opposition. I've looked at the science, thought long and hard about it, concurred with much of it and concluded that none of it supports the notion "You cannot mix on headphones."
b]Proof is a funny thing. How can you prove one can't mix on phones ? Even yourself, Steen and Jimmy have all at some point in this thread said that sure, it can be done.
c]Of course things can go wrong when using solely headphones to mix. If you can find where I denied such a thing can happen, I'll gladly retract, primarily because I think that would be a stupid thing to say. Things can go wrong at any stage of the game.
Well, they can be plagued with issues if they're in the wrong place, depending on where one sits, the shape of the room, what's in the room, the size of the speaker, etc, etc, etc.
I take great note of the advice given to mixers on this site and I do so and always have done because I want to improve as a mixer and also because I don't have a dedicated space to track and mix so I have to think with my limitations in mind. My heart resides in the kind of space you're currently constructing {and even in the one you had before or the one Supercreep used to have}, my reality resides with Karl Coryat's "Guerilla Home Recording" and my mind weaves in and out of how to bring my heart and reality together in such a way that I can listen to the music I'm involved in mixing and say "I seriously enjoyed that ! Where's the rewind ?"
To call you a dick because you state that you'll never mix on headphones would be scaling the heights of dickatotiousness itself. My bottom line is and long has been that there are many ways to skin this cat we engage in and all the ways co~exist, though not always applicable at every moment. And neither should they be. The desire not to go a particular way neither exalts one's chosen way nor consigns the rejected way to the trash heap.
CoolCat
Well-known member
Amp sims and DI and Sampled Drums with quantizer and singing with auto-tune.
yes...and now using room-sims to create a "reality".
and reverb sims instead of building tunnels and chambers in the back yard....or pedal sims instead of having 20qty 9v batterys going bad....
simulated reality
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Well...since you admit that we all said you can...then I guess none of us really said you can't.
What we said was that mixing on headphones has issues that are not present with monitors...and to get the imaging right with only headphones so the mix will sound equally good on other playback systems, it's more difficult if all you use are headphones. Your perception of the L/R image will be skewed. It might sound great to you, but it will not translate the same to other, non-headphone systems.
Maybe that's not a concern...or maybe your target audience exclusively uses headphones for listening...it's your decision.
Since you used Warrens Huart's video as your "proof" or evidence....here are some quotes from the "Produce Like A Pro" website, which he is affiliated with, specifically talking about the issues we mentioned exist when mixing with headphones.
It pretty much covers what we've been saying about the problems one has to deal with when mixing with only headphones.
CoolCat
Well-known member
The Crossfeed is what the sim plugin does.....it creates a "sim mono- speaker in a room simulation "
You slap it on the master buss, and turn it on, and it simulates to both ears as if you were listening to speakers....its not mono and its not stereo.
its a crossfeed plug.
DeeSpeaker FREE Nearfield Monitor Emulator VST/AU Plugin
You slap it on the master buss, and turn it on, and it simulates to both ears as if you were listening to speakers....its not mono and its not stereo.
its a crossfeed plug.
DeeSpeaker FREE Nearfield Monitor Emulator VST/AU Plugin
CoolCat
Well-known member
My family of elders disliked Elvis, and definitely would have been old school where electric guitars were not even believed to be "organic".
My uncles had a music side and the youngest went into some Electric guitar, but it was at most Chet Atkins and their live gig was Mr Sandman and oldies.
The older brothers were acoustic guitars, mandolins and fiddles and there was a beauty about the sound in a close up family get together.
Playing live didnt work well though as I recall when the mics and PA's and electrics tried merging in on the Bluegrass.
Its funny how organic goes in definition as decades pass and now Tube Electric Guitar amps is considered "organic" to some, but I get it. Theres something fun about making a recording without using a mouse 300 times to do a guitar track. Ive never learned how to do MIDI it just seems too robotic to learn.
Dont they have software plugins now that can correct all the mix mistakes too? So then what is the point of the room and all that work?
Monitors and Rooms seems soooo expensive and large (as in sq footage).....it makes sense Headphones and dedicated amps and headphone/room plugins are quadrupling in sales per Warren.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
I went through a heavy MIDI period back in the early '90s. MIDI sequencing was the predecessor to the DAW and digital audio.
At first it was so cool the things MIDI let you do...I was a junkie for a couple of years...but then, it quickly lost its appeal, and right about that time I got my first DAW setup in the mid-90s.
I stopped using anything MIDI for a long time, but these last few years I revisited MIDI due to the improvement in drum sampling technology. When I used to sequence drums in MIDI, and trigger samples from hardware boxes, it was too "stiff" and the samples were still pretty "lo-fi"...you could use it for synthetic beats, like what you hear with a lot of Dance/Rap/Trance, and many of those lo-fi drum samples became staples for those styles of music, and many are still favored today compared to the current high-quality drum samples and drum apps....but for what I was doing, the drums were always the Achilles heel (and my mixing skills
).After dealing with recording real drums again for a bunch of years after the MIDI days...I rediscovered the new drum sample technology, and that's what made me dust off my MIDI skills...and now I also occasionally add some keyboard samples too on some tracks...though TBH, I'm using MIDI at a very basic level compared to how deep I was into it back in the '90s.
I just prefer to go old-school as much as possible when recording...even though I use a DAW and MIDI technology, it's there to support my analog tracking and mixing process, and not as the primary creative tool.
Duncan Hutchins
New member
By the look of it my longish post never reached these pages. My main point has been covered elsewhere. I was discussing the merits of headphones for working on the 'live gig' recordings that I make, and stated that the 'binaural stereo' one gets from headphones is drastically unlike what you'd hear from loudspeakers monitors in 'free air', where the 2 tracks inevitably influence each other and both ears. I also spoke of the fact that 'mono' from a gig recording often sounds much better and less 'tangled up' than a stereo recording. But actually mixing 2 tracks down to stereo can be disastrous: to many phase cancellations etc, producing severe audible loss of high frequencies. I recommended using whichever track sounds best, and ditch the other one. It's surprising how little is lost; the truth is that correct panning on a 'live desk' is generally quite slight
Duncan Hutchins
New member
I entirely agree. As it happens, I'm obliged to use high isolation headphones when 'live' mixing: one tends to be pushed into some remote corner of the venue meaning there's usually too much chatter, background noise and room reflections to hear what's really coming from the PA / stage amps. Your use of 'open backed' headphones would certainly be the wise choice when re-listening and post-processing later
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
It's been around for a week; it's post no.54.