[SOLVED] I'm ignorant, help! Phase issues between hard panned guitars

FritzFitzgerald

New member
First off, I'm not sure if this is a mixing issue or tracking issue or what not so sorry if i've posted this is the wrong forum.
Second, here are sound samples so you can hear what I'm talking about Phase Issue by nmans1026 | Free Listening on SoundCloud
Not sure if soundcloud is the best way to put these samples up for people to hear so if you have a better recommendation i'd love to hear it.

Here's the problem: I'm working on a version of canon rock and i've come across an issue that I experienced in the last song that I tried to do. I have two tracks, each recorded direct using two different guitars and then panned hard left and hard right. Each track has a different amp sim, different impulse response and i've even tried doing different crazy EQ settings to try to fix it. In stereo the guitars sound great (well, maybe not great but i guess what I might call passable) but checking it in mono, which seems like the logical thing to do, the guitars get into a fist fight and murder each other.

I have no idea what I'm doing wrong or how to fix it, i've tried a couple different things and it seems like no matter what, once summed to mono everything just falls apart.
In my search for google knowledge i've come across people saying "ah screw it, people shouldnt be listening to your stuff in mono anyways" but that's not the answer I want, I want to learn something, plus I should be able to listen to my stuff on my phone to check the mix :cursing:
 
Sorry, I am not hearing 'two guitars' in the stereo version. It sounds like one guitar with some stereo FX. The problem you describe, though, is not infrequent when using 'phase' type FX on 2 identical guitar parts. The difference in 'starting point' of the phase FX combined with subtle differences in the strumming/picking can cause the problem.
 
Sorry, I am not hearing 'two guitars' in the stereo version.
Plus 1 to that. Sounds like one recording processed slightly differently for l+r and the mono sum is pretty much exactly what you'd expect from that.

I have two tracks, each recorded direct using two different guitars and then panned hard left and hard right.
Maybe the recorded tracks got mixed up or there's some small routing mistake?
 
I'm starting to think maybe I'm losing it because this happened on the last track I did as well, two guitars, tracked independently, different (but similar) amp sims, different impulses. I can't even think of how it may be a routing problem that I somehow got mixed up. I know the guitars are definitely double tracked because I can see the difference in the wave forms. I guess I'll just try a wildly different amp sim on one of the guitar? I feel like I'm going crazy :eek:
 
Not sure what's going on here...I had another listen there.
This time I set my speaker amp on mono and compared your two files. They should sound the same, you'd think, but the stereo version had much more present guitars.
The guitars in the mono version sounded mid-scooped or something.

Maybe it's something to do with how the mono sum is being made, or bounced?
 
I suppose it could have something to do with how reaper is summing to mono, I'm not sure why or how though... I'll do some more investigating when I get home from work
 
Alright, I did some further investigating. Reaper lets you sum to mono in a couple ways, L+R, L-R, L only, R only. I tried L+R and L-R and it didn't help. I tried making one track a tube screamer in front of a marshall and the other track a dual rectifier so there was be a bit of difference between the amps and it still wasnt fixed, I tried rendering each track with the fx on it as a stem just in case there was something weird going on - no dice, I tried to manually align the peaks of the waveforms, didn't help.

Just a thought although I can't see how it would matter but one track is an epiphone les paul and the other track is an ibanez. the only thing these two guitars have in common is they both have duncan distortions in the bridge. I can't possibly see how it would matter after amp sims and impulses are applied but I am just really at a loss here. I think me have small brain that no work so good :facepalm:

All that said, i've uploaded some of the dry guitar tracks (I noticed that both are clipping, Hooray for retracking :spank: )
But i guess if someone has the time and inclination I would be very appreciative if they could noodle with them and see if they might be able to figure out what I screwed up?
Link here: Dropbox - Guitar Tracks - Simplify your life

Anyways, I really appreciate you folks trying to help. I've been out of the game for too long and cant solve simple problems :laughings:

As a side note, listen to how similar the guitars sound with them both having the same pickup. pretty much defeats the purpose of using two guitars in the first place haha
 
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alright just a quick update, i've stumbled upon something interesting... I was fiddling with more eq and amp sims and what not when i accidentally loaded a mono eq vst instead of a stereo one onto the guitar buss and the guitars sounded fine...
Sum to mono on master buss and I get phase cancellation, pan the tracks right up the middle and i get phased out of my mind, but using a mono plug in on the guitar buss gets me the results i had originally expected.

...I'm not sure what to make of it
 
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That sounds really unusual!
I was going to reply and say I listened to your raw tracks and had a bit of a play and am starting to wonder if they're just too similar in tone or not complimentary...like the mono mix of the two just isn't a great combo.
That may, or may not, still be the case but what you're describing above is odd.

I'd be curious to hear a full mix render with that mono eq plug in place, if you have the time or inclination.
I'm wondering if it's going to sound like your stereo mix did when I hit my hardware mono button.
 
Yeah I'll try to get a video uploaded today after work so you can see and hear whats going on. I was all ready to blame my guitars until I accidentally put that mono plug in on. I guess at least I can say that this problem is interesting if nothing else
 
alright, here's a video showing what I'm seeing and hearing - Guitar Phase - YouTube

It might be kind of hard to tell but at the end when i have the mono VST engaged and then switch the master to mono there's a slight difference in the guitars...
Hopefully something can get figured out because this is maddening
 
I always make a point of using mono eq and compressor plugin's on mono tracks, you can get extra problems by summing stereo plugins to mono. There are some stereo plugins that don't have a problem and sometimes there is no mono version, but these are the ones that don't seem to have a problem with mono sources. But if there is a chose use mono.

Alan
 
I always make a point of using mono eq and compressor plugin's on mono tracks, you can get extra problems by summing stereo plugins to mono. There are some stereo plugins that don't have a problem and sometimes there is no mono version, but these are the ones that don't seem to have a problem with mono sources. But if there is a chose use mono.

Alan

I do as well, but in this case its a mono vst on a stereo buss

Edit: i read through your comment to fast, I see what you're saying... I'll look into it

Edit Edit: I tried putting mono plugins at the end of the chain on the individual guitar tracks in case there was some odd stereo stuff going on but it didnt make any difference in the phase cancellation with the master set to mono
 
If you have the plugin on a stereo buss, the stereo plug in should not make a difference as the bus is acting in with the panning of the mono track. One think to check when using stereo plugins is that the left and right link is switched in, this mainly applies to compressors.

Just a thought, is the whole signal going through the plug in or are you sending the signal via a aux send? this can happen if you have a buss set up but the signal from the original track is still going to the main bus as well as the buss you have set up. There is an option to turn the signal to the main mix buss off and only have the signal go to the buss you have the effects on. Don't know if I explained that very well?

When you click on the routing button on the buss, look in the top left corner, master send should be on. But if you click on the routing button of each of the tracks going to the buss, the master send should be off.

Alan

Edit, I should have said the reason, if there is a latency through the actual plug in, the signal being sent to the master buss via both sources could be slightly out of phase, this depends on the plugin latency.
 
If you have the plugin on a stereo buss, the stereo plug in should not make a difference as the bus is acting in with the panning of the mono track. One think to check when using stereo plugins is that the left and right link is switched in, this mainly applies to compressors.

Just a thought, is the whole signal going through the plug in or are you sending the signal via a aux send? this can happen if you have a buss set up but the signal from the original track is still going to the main bus as well as the buss you have set up. There is an option to turn the signal to the main mix buss off and only have the signal go to the buss you have the effects on. Don't know if I explained that very well?

When you click on the routing button on the buss, look in the top left corner, master send should be on. But if you click on the routing button of each of the tracks going to the buss, the master send should be off.

Alan

Edit, I should have said the reason, if there is a latency through the actual plug in, the signal being sent to the master buss via both sources could be slightly out of phase, this depends on the plugin latency.

I checked and the signal goes Mono guitar tracks -> guitar buss -> master
so the mono guitar tracks dont have anything going straight to the master. as far as plug in latency goes, i've noticed this as well especially with different amp sims and different impulses. on the current project, if i use one track that has been duplicated as my L and R guitars, it sounds fine. it's when using the double tracked guitars that everything gets weird, even with all the plugins turned off the dry guitar tracks in mono sound like theres a chorus effect on them

which leads me to believe that either
A). there is something wrong with how reaper sums things to mono - which doesnt really make sense since even if the track is rendered in stereo, it still sounds phasey on a mono cellphone speaker or,
B). there is something wrong with the way the guitars were tracked/something wrong with the guitars themselves

what really threw a wrench in it though was the mono vst on the guitar buss sounding alright. What's the difference between putting a mono vst on a buss and hitting the mono switch on the master?
 
It probably doesn't really help you much but I'd check that SSL EQ plugin on some other track, just incase it does have some effect with all the dials at zero.
I use waves but don't have that particular plugin, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of these hardware emulating plugins have 'a sound' even when they're doing nothing.

As for the summing - I really don't know what's going on but you're right - There shouldn't be a difference between hitting mono on a bus or hitting mono on the master.
There may appear to be a difference if you have the rest of the mix playing out, as the rest of the mix would be stereo in one test and mono in the other.
but with guitars in solo there shouldn't be a difference at all.
 
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It probably doesn't really help you much but I'd check that SSL EQ plugin on some other track, just incase it does have some effect with all the dials at zero.
I use waves but don't have that particular plugin, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of these hardware emulating plugins have 'a sound' even when they're doing nothing.

As for the summing - I really don't know what's going on but you're right - There shouldn't be a difference between hitting mono on a bus or hitting mono on the master.
There may appear to be a difference if you have the rest of the mix playing out, so the guitars are going mono/stereo against an unchanging backdrop,
but with guitars in solo there shouldn't be a difference at all.

im pretty sure even with the dials at zero those ssl plugins do in fact have a sound of their own...
I did some more googling and it seems that tuning and how tight you play (these tracks were pretty sloppy) can cause some of the weirdness that i'm experiencing. i had reason to believe that it wasnt a tuning issue but i'm going to do some more test tracks after work and see if it is in fact a slightly out of tune guitar or sloppy playing. hopefully going back to basics will reveal some silly little mistake i made
 
None of what happened on the video really surprised me. When you pan the guitars in, they get a little louder because of Pan law. When you engage the mono plugin, it throws away the right-hand guitar.
 
None of what happened on the video really surprised me. When you pan the guitars in, they get a little louder because of Pan law. When you engage the mono plugin, it throws away the right-hand guitar.

I haven't even considered that the mono plug-in might be just getting rid of the right side, I just assumed it was actually summing the two tracks. That simplifies things - it has to be how they're tracked...
 
From a random website describing the chorus effect "let’s take a moment to remember what the humble chorus pedal was trying to do when it was first conceived. It is designed to replicate the effects that is heard when a group of singers are all singing the same line. Because of the nature of humanity and before the advent of digital manipulation, very few of them will be perfectly in time or even singing the exact same note, so there is a oscillation that occurs and the chorus effect was born"

I retracked the guitars make damn sure i was as close to perfectly in tune as I could be and here is the result Corona Canon Rock 2 by nmans1026 | Free Listening on SoundCloud

I think what we are hearing isnt necessarily a phase issue but just some odd oscillation due to the exact same thing being played twice and being ever so slightly out of tune. I suppose I'm willing to accept this as an answer but if this is in fact the case, how is it that professional recording don't suffer from this problem (not that i've noticed anyways)?

The oscillation is still there in the newly recorded tracks but it isnt nearly as bad as the originals... also, if you'll notice as the mix gets busier the effect seems to get lost in the noise so thats good i guess
At what point do you say "this is good enough"? any ideas on how I could fix or even just improve upon my methods?
 
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