Howdy guys, I need some tips on keeping my tracks having multiple instruments playing harmonized polyphonic melodies. But often I run into clutter, or get frustrated with how to configure bass mid and highs so that they don't interfere with each other but work together. As hard as I try mixing the levels something always tends to choke something else out. Professional music always sounds so much friggin better I wanna learn how to mix well. I use fl studio 9. I record electric guitar, acoustic base, and use a midi controller for synthetic instruments like bass pads loops and drums. Any advice fellow producers?
How does one sound nice and clean?
- Thread starter TheTopPro
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TyphoidHippo
1Trillion K Platinum User
Well, first off make sure your instruments are in tune. And I mean *really* in tune. The importance there can't be overstated. Check and set the intonation on your guitars and basses, so that when you go to play an A# on your low E string, the produced note is exactly an A#.
As for your mixing questions, cut out everything that sounds bad in every track - (using parametric sweep technique - there's an article on that on SouthSideGlen's website, link in my sig). That's really all there is to it. That sounds like an oversimplification, but it's really not - seriously. Good sources, recorded well, really only require the mix-engineer to cut out non-musical sounds, and the song pretty much mixes itself.
edit: http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/columns/gstep/index.php?id=69 <--That's the article on the parametric sweep technique
As for your mixing questions, cut out everything that sounds bad in every track - (using parametric sweep technique - there's an article on that on SouthSideGlen's website, link in my sig). That's really all there is to it. That sounds like an oversimplification, but it's really not - seriously. Good sources, recorded well, really only require the mix-engineer to cut out non-musical sounds, and the song pretty much mixes itself.
edit: http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/columns/gstep/index.php?id=69 <--That's the article on the parametric sweep technique
Chili
Site Moderator
I'm wondering about the "harmonized polyphonic melodies" part. Do the melodies truly work well together? Gotta take a step back and be subjective and make sure it really does work. Recording it will bring out interactions that you may not hear live.
Other than that, everything else Typhoid said...
Other than that, everything else Typhoid said...
Thanks a lot for the reply dude I appreciate it.
My instruments are always in tune. If they're not I usually hear it.
I haven't heard of parametric yet although an equalizer I have has the term parametric in front of it.
It sounds like it's a noise removal process. I'm looking for advice on buildin up instruments so that the clutter or overlapping never really happens. Do I start off everything quiet? Or do I practice listening to multiple instruments playing and hearing all 3 or so. Or is it some frequency levels I have to modify for an instrument to sit at a certain spectrum of sound. Do I need to use equalizers on everything? So many questions D:
My instruments are always in tune. If they're not I usually hear it.
I haven't heard of parametric yet although an equalizer I have has the term parametric in front of it.
It sounds like it's a noise removal process. I'm looking for advice on buildin up instruments so that the clutter or overlapping never really happens. Do I start off everything quiet? Or do I practice listening to multiple instruments playing and hearing all 3 or so. Or is it some frequency levels I have to modify for an instrument to sit at a certain spectrum of sound. Do I need to use equalizers on everything? So many questions D:
Chibi Nappa
New member
This is 100% a recording problem, not a mixing problem. You need to dial in sounds that work together and the performances themselves have to stay out of each other's way. This comes down to insane timing and volume/dynamics control when playing harmony/melody type simultaneous parts.
When you do go in for EQ mixing improvements, don't go soloing every track listening in isolation to cut out what is bad. You have to listen all at once. I know TyphoidHippo didn't mean that you should solo, I'm just clarifying.
And don't be afraid to boost EQ either. There is a big myth floating around that cutting is better than boosting. It probably originated in live sound where a boost can get you some nasty feedback...but that's a thread for another day.
I will say that it is very hard to distinguish something that needs a treble boost from something that needs a bass cut. It takes time to sort stuff like that out in your head.
Yep.
Eh... Sort of. But really it should all work together before mixing even starts. Not just sorta' work. It should be almost radio-ready aside from the fact that it is spread out over 24 tracks.
When you do go in for EQ mixing improvements, don't go soloing every track listening in isolation to cut out what is bad. You have to listen all at once. I know TyphoidHippo didn't mean that you should solo, I'm just clarifying.
And don't be afraid to boost EQ either. There is a big myth floating around that cutting is better than boosting. It probably originated in live sound where a boost can get you some nasty feedback...but that's a thread for another day.
I will say that it is very hard to distinguish something that needs a treble boost from something that needs a bass cut. It takes time to sort stuff like that out in your head.
TyphoidHippo
1Trillion K Platinum User
Actually, I don't think it would matter if the track was soloed or not - I wasn't clear with exactly what I was saying, and I see that now. I was advising him to notch out those nasty resonant sounds that just somehow manage to find their way into recorded audio.
As far as actual mixing, yea, of course - don't do that one track at a time, and some things will benefit from gentle boosts, some from cuts, some won't benefit from any EQ at all. I just kind of glossed over that with "the song will mix itself" - it should be pretty intuitive what needs to be done if the tracks are all in tune, sound good, and have all their nasties notched out. I didn't understand the parametric sweep technique for a long time, and once I found it... well, everything just made sense - take all the quirky crap-sounds out of each track, and that naturally just leaves room for non-crap sounds of other tracks - I wouldn't even consider it part of mixing, honestly - immediately after tracking something, I sweep through and notch out anything that makes my ears bleed when boosted 10 db with a really narrow Q. I'm not talking about doing something dramatic to the track like a high-or low pass, or anything that would actually be a mix-decision. I'm talking about notching out the very-narrow bands of noise that just aren't musical, I don't honestly know exactly what causes them - but they sound *terrible* and they wouldn't be good in any mix, for any reason. There's no way to tell they're even there without doing the "parametric sweep" technique. Of course, after notching them out, and ABing back and forth - it's like "oh wow - that was just a horrible noise - and now it's gone".
It's very rare for some recorded source to not have at least one... but I find that if there's more than two or three hotspots of "crapness" when doing the sweep, the track needs to be re-recorded with a different mic, or in a different room, or something - something's just not working. That link I posted explains the idea quite exhaustively.
Ah okay good so that sweeping sounds like a good idea.
Whenever I record all the instruments live it uually has it's way of sounding okay. (I just recently switched to mic-ing amps as opposed to direct plugin in on Electric guitar, and I Just got my bass guitar) so usually I have trouble balancing synthetic instruments. But if you could throw in any tips on how to record on those methods I specified I would be grateful.
Whenever I record all the instruments live it uually has it's way of sounding okay. (I just recently switched to mic-ing amps as opposed to direct plugin in on Electric guitar, and I Just got my bass guitar) so usually I have trouble balancing synthetic instruments. But if you could throw in any tips on how to record on those methods I specified I would be grateful.
TyphoidHippo
1Trillion K Platinum User
Well, they're usually all notched out for you already (or they never existed to begin with because they were recorded in some alien-spaceship of recording studios with ridiculously awesome stuff by ridiculously awesome people..), but I've definitely found nasty crap-sounds in virtual instruments that had to be notched out, as well. The Grand comes to mind for one specific example. The thing is that once you notch out all the garbage, it's kind of like you're "punching holes" all over the mix, in individual instruments, and then other instruments, that don't sound terrible at those frequencies will just naturally fill in the gaps - no extra work required. I believe that does start to address some of your questions.
As far as more specific advice, it varies from song-to-song, which I know is kind of a crap-answer, but: The MP3 mixing clinic here on HR is a really good place to get lots and lots of ears on a specific mix to get very pointed advice on specific things.
I just read that article and even though it wasn't the answer to my lifes struggles it was still some very neat advice.
I noticed that there is always a difference in how instruments sound when played from different speakers. Which kinda bugs me because not only does it sound different. Certain speakers will play bass too loud others would play bass too quiet. Cellphone speakers would actually not play certain instruments like vocals and guitars. Any thoughts on that?
I noticed that there is always a difference in how instruments sound when played from different speakers. Which kinda bugs me because not only does it sound different. Certain speakers will play bass too loud others would play bass too quiet. Cellphone speakers would actually not play certain instruments like vocals and guitars. Any thoughts on that?
gecko zzed
Grumpy Mod
Tuning is vital, as others have noted. Also vital is phrasing, i.e. that all the instruments are playing along with each others, as if they were being conducted (unless syncopation is a deliberate musical tactic).
Consider the roles of all those harmony lines. Is there a dominant melody line that can be highlighted, with other lines providing harmonic support, or is it just a free-for-all?
TyphoidHippo
1Trillion K Platinum User
Oh yea, tons! You'll get a lot of responses to that question, I'm certain - because that's kind of the heart of mixing: Knowing that the mix you just did not only sounds good on your monitors, in your room, right now - but it will sound good on *any* speakers, anywhere, any time. That comes down to "training your ears", so to speak - and it just takes time. There are very general tips like "compressed signals will sound more consistent across varying listening environments due to them being compressed, of course", but even something as simple as that can be misleading, so most people just don't say stuff like that.
Now, call me crazy, but somehow I get the impression that my responses to this thread aren't really what you're looking for, so I'll see myself out. Good luck!
Actually I'd love to hear pretty much anything anyone here has to say.
I've heard of compression before and I never got why or how to use it. Care to explain?
In other news I just got a nice pair of studio monitors.
So I'm comparing volume levels from pro music to my lead, bass, and drum levels. Sounds better.
Oh another question. Let's say I'm recording a lead guitar, if I want to record a harmony for it, should I lessen the distortion on them or is it fine just doubling the guitar riff?
I've heard of compression before and I never got why or how to use it. Care to explain?
In other news I just got a nice pair of studio monitors.
So I'm comparing volume levels from pro music to my lead, bass, and drum levels. Sounds better.
Oh another question. Let's say I'm recording a lead guitar, if I want to record a harmony for it, should I lessen the distortion on them or is it fine just doubling the guitar riff?
You should also take into consideration that instruments share similar frequencies, like the never ending battle between kick drum and bass guitar.
You have to make sure that each instrument has it's own spot in the mix and that you let the instrument shine in it's perspective frequency range and not step all over each other.
You have to make sure that each instrument has it's own spot in the mix and that you let the instrument shine in it's perspective frequency range and not step all over each other.
jlewis
attic boy
It's good that you have monitors, this will certainly help the situation, go for some room treatment as well if you don't already have it. Here's some quick notes about compression. It basically keeps things from being too dynamic, for example with vocals, the singer naturally sings some words/sylables louder than others, maybe too much louder for the recording, a compressor can squish these loud bumps down.
Threshold - when the input level reaches whatever you have this set at, the compressor kicks in
Ratio - how much the compressor compresses, for example with a ratio of 4:1, if the level goes 4db over the threshold it will be compressed to 1db over the threshold.
Attack - how quickly the compressor clamps down on a signal that is above the threshold
Release - how quickly the compressor lets go
hopefully that is enough info to get you playing around with it.
Threshold - when the input level reaches whatever you have this set at, the compressor kicks in
Ratio - how much the compressor compresses, for example with a ratio of 4:1, if the level goes 4db over the threshold it will be compressed to 1db over the threshold.
Attack - how quickly the compressor clamps down on a signal that is above the threshold
Release - how quickly the compressor lets go
hopefully that is enough info to get you playing around with it.
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
I've had to make a concerted effort to try to avoid cluttered mixes. My problem often is that I have so many ideas running through a song and I'd not want to put any of them to the sword. So I'd leave them all in and end up with an indistinct jumble. On alot of my early stuff, if I turned on a song mid way through, I'd never know where I was ! I'd be thinking "what the heck is this song ?". It would be a while before I'd recognize it. The other problem, I had was that I'd independently work all my instrument lines around either the guitar or the bass. Say it was the guitar. Though each instrument would fit beautifully with the guitar chord progression, there was no guarantee that each would fit with everything else.....
That's when I started to actually craft songs. They often take longer, sometimes I'm ruthless in editing bits out if they make the whole lopsided. I do like to have a few instrument lines or harmonies going from time to time, but if things start to get cluttered, someone's got to go ! Alot of it is arrangement, alot of it is experimentation. It can be so annoying when someone says that it'll come good in the end, because at the time, it's not what you wanna hear ! But it is true - providing you persevere.
Panning is often great for multiple lines.
I listen to songs of all genres and ages with such a different ear now. Still love them, but I'm listening also to how they're recorded, arranged, mixed. There are are "too" many different ways, not just one way. But keep sticking with it. Take on board both the technical advice and the artistic moves and try to be diverse.
NYMorningstar
Recording Modus Operandi
When tracking guitar amps with mics turn down the distortion on them because you won't need as much as normal live sound. Doubling the guitar riff is usually fruitless and recording a harmony lead can be priceless.
TyphoidHippo
1Trillion K Platinum User
Well, cool, then. My bad
Ok, this is gonna seem like yet another-lame answer, but it's not. Other than "harmonized polyphonic melodies", and that you use a bunch of virtual instruments and some guitar and bass, you haven't really mentioned much about your music. Can you elaborate more - or better yet - do you have a link to a song? This could describe some kind of techno-metal, some kind of symphony/rock band fusion, a big jazz band, really a lot of things.
I mean - in all styles of music, too much distortion is a very bad thing, it usually takes a lot less than you would think at first, even in brutal death-metal stuff. And - also in all styles of music, well-played lead guitar harmonies are sexy. But to be more specific, and to even answer the doubling-the-guitar riffs question at all (heavy metal: absolutely. smooth jazz: probably not. everything else: different answer) - we need to know more about what you are doing.
Sorry Ive been away for so long.
Well I have one full track I did on Youtube. Along with some other REALLY old ones.
This is the last one I uploaded
(before I got my bass guitar and before I stopped using direct plugin for guitar recording)
[video=youtube;watch?v=9aJMmJAKbW0]video[/video]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aJMmJAKbW0
It's more on the softer side of what I wanna do.
I like playing around with different styles within a song ranging from: deep/melodic, fast/technical, hard/badass, slow to chaotic.
As for synthetic instruments I usually use arpeggiated synths and pads.
And I just generally got a lot better at music since then but whatever advice you have for me I'll gladly listen to =]
Well I have one full track I did on Youtube. Along with some other REALLY old ones.
This is the last one I uploaded
(before I got my bass guitar and before I stopped using direct plugin for guitar recording)
[video=youtube;watch?v=9aJMmJAKbW0]video[/video]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aJMmJAKbW0
It's more on the softer side of what I wanna do.
I like playing around with different styles within a song ranging from: deep/melodic, fast/technical, hard/badass, slow to chaotic.
As for synthetic instruments I usually use arpeggiated synths and pads.
And I just generally got a lot better at music since then but whatever advice you have for me I'll gladly listen to =]
superqwertyboy
New member
I didn't read all the replys, but... Make sure you have consistently clean strings. I use roundwond nickel, and make sure you have fresh batteries in all your instrument preamps, my MM4 Stingray will eat a fresh Duracell in 90 minutes