Having trouble with Hardcore Vocals

khoff

New member
Hey there. I recorded a band and Im having some trouble with the mixing of the vocals.

It just doesn't sound like it cuts through very well.

The music/vocal type is along the lines of "The Ghost Inside" or "Thick As Blood."

My instruments come together extremely well its just the vocals, they sound too harsh and overpowering compared to the music. But when I lower the volume, it sounds too low.

Any tips?
 
First thing I'd have to ask is what's your chain?

You can throw compression and EQ around as much as you'd like, but a lot of people just use the wrong input chain too... Not much will really fix that.
 
Ok so its a minor ableton compressor for dynamics, then a tape saturator with a small amount of gain to give warmth, Waves VEq with a low cut and boosts somewhere around 2500-5000 if im not mistaken, and Waves V compressor for loudness.
 
You don't mention any reverb or delay on the vocal, you probably will need some to help it mix in, too much bass in a vocal can make it hard to mix, you mention a low cut but not where it's cutting, depending on the vocalist and the way it's recorded you can need this anywhere from turned off right up to 400hz+, when I mix mine there's a sweet spot where it stops sounding boomy and bassy but if I move it higher it starts to sound thin, for me its usually around 300hz.

Also too strong a mid range in your guitars can mask the vocal so it's either sitting on top of the mix, or if you turn it slightly down becomes unclear, panning the guitars left and right can help and scooping a few decibels in the guitars mid range maybe centred around 1-2khz with quite a wide cut can create a pocket for the vocal to sit in. Be carefully doing this however as too much will make the guitars lose their bite and may not have even been your problem, but it's worth a look.
 
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You might want to post a sample since it is virtually impossible to make suggestions without actually hearing the issue you are trying to describe. Nevertheless, first question I have is how do the vocals sound by themselves without all the plug-ins? Are they harsh, bassy, clipping or do they sound good. That goes to Massive 's question about vocal chain? If the vocals don't sound decent on the way in, you'll end up having to do much more work in the hopes of ending up with a decent vocal track. Don't settle for the "I'll fix it in the mix" position. If the vocal sound is questionable at this point, you might try a different mic/pre combination (if you have them).

At what point in your mixing process do you bring in the vocals? If the vocals sound "good" on their own, you might want to start the mix with them and build your mix around them. Getting the vocals in early can help them to sit better in the mix.

Lastly, a healthy dose of automation or fader riding might be a solution providing everything sounds the way you want it but the vocal volume is the only issue.

Again all this is just talk and without a sample to help direct the suggestions, it's all conjecture.
 
Yeah a sample would be nice, it's hard to know what your mean by harsh, as the others have suggested getting a good recording in the first place is key, but maybe by harsh you meant 'stark' which is more of a mix issue, especially as you imply the harshness goes as you reduce in volume but then is 'too low' I notice your boosting the highs which would increase harshness (not starkness!), even with a great recording you may still need all the suggestions I gave earlier.
 
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First thing I'd have to ask is what's your chain?
Ok so its a minor ableton compressor for dynamics, then a tape saturator with a small amount of gain to give warmth, Waves VEq with a low cut and boosts somewhere around 2500-5000 if im not mistaken, and Waves V compressor for loudness.
Great, but what's your chain? Are you working with a nice, slow, heavy-diaphragm dynamic going through a reasonably decent preamp with plenty of headroom, or are you trying to scream into some overly-sensitive 3-micron sputtered LDC going into a "toob" preamp with levels that would melt gold and then wondering why it sounds like poopies?
 
Haha sorry I thought you meant plugin chain. I recorded through a large diaphragm Superlux condenser in my "vocal booth" closet with plenty of clothing, pillows and other shit to make it pretty quiet. Then going through the preamps from my Presonus Firepod which have yet to fail on me with quality. The input sounds fine on its own.

I actually have a separate track for reverb with only the wet signal, and another track for doubled vocals which are panned left and right.

The low cut is on all of them, at 270hz. No delay at all, I don't find its very effective with screaming but it could be worth a shot. Levels of the centered track are a little higher than the doubled.

Heres a sample.

Sample by KHoff Productions on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free

You guys let me know, It could be the mix. But both things sound fine on their own, they just don't blend well together.
 
If vocals don't sit in the mix, I'd either find what's making them sound out of place and cut that/boost the vocals. If it takes more than a little tweaking, I'd retrack the vox of offending tracks. Vocals are the crown jewel for me, so you wanna make sure they sit in the mix perfectly.

Now, to yours specifically...get out of the booth...the vocals sound really boxed in and need some air to move (i have no idea if these are technical terms, but get out of the booth and it'll make the vocals better. Also, with the lower screaming, the vocals are occupying a lot of the same place as the guitars. You'll need to figure that out in EQ. For that type of music it's alright to make the vocals a bit hotter than usual, to let the guitars stay in the mid range and not compete so much.
 
The guitars occupy most of the low-mid/mid and some high-mid range since I cut them around 150hz. I may have to adjust some of that in order to make it sit better then. I also just thought of this, but I may want to DEss the track, since maybe those sibilant ess's are making it harsh, or perhaps stark may be what I am referring to.
 
Hi just had a listen to your track, I see what you mean about not sitting well with the rest of the track. The bin the vocal booth suggestion may be part of it, what struck me was the contrast between the guitars and vocals, the guitars are quite ambient sounding, and quite low in volume and not particularly bright which makes the vocal seem dry and too loud by comparison. Adding delay to vocal is worth a look again like you said.

Just on a side note the kick in this type of music is usually more present with more beater click ( maybe eq boost around 3khz) and a bit more presence in the 150-250hz region is worth a look aswell.
 
I'd try a better mic right off the bat. A 58 would be more suitable for that voice. SM7b (if not obvious), RE20, PR40, if you really feel the need to use an overly-sensitive condenser (like the Superluxes try to be), Rode's NT1a or M-Audio's Luna have reasonably slow, heavier diaphragms that are much more aggressive-vocal-friendly than most.
 
I don't know, I really think Condensers sound better for screaming vocals or for any for that matter. Maybe doubling it with a dynamic might have been a good idea, but either way I can't really get a new mic anytime too soon and Its been recorded already. Next time I'll look into that but for now I need to work with what i got.

I tried that idea with the kick and it actually really cleared up some room, and after applying a DEsser and harmonic excitement to the track as well as turning up the reverb I got a decent sounding vocal mix, it just still doesn't sit right to me.
It could be the vocalist honestly, I've recorded him before on a different setup and had similar issues.
 
could be the vocalist, but from listening to the original mix, it seems like the vocals, guitars, upper part of kick and bass, are all sitting in about the same space. And the vocals are super dry in that mix so they don't seem to be in the same room as the rest of the instruments.
 
I don't know, I really think Condensers sound better for screaming vocals or for any for that matter.
Nearly every classic vocal mic ever created would disagree. Except some of the condensers that have a very "dynamic-ish" quality to them...

It could be the vocalist honestly, I've recorded him before on a different setup and had similar issues.
Certainly a valid point there...
 
I'd try a better mic right off the bat. A 58 would be more suitable for that voice. SM7b (if not obvious), RE20, PR40, if you really feel the need to use an overly-sensitive condenser (like the Superluxes try to be), Rode's NT1a or M-Audio's Luna have reasonably slow, heavier diaphragms that are much more aggressive-vocal-friendly than most.
+1
Just did a heavy scream session. Difference between an U87, AT4040 compared to a MD421(because I don't have an SM-7) was dramatic!!!!!
 
I always forget about the 421... Definitely a worthy contender. Especially the metal -- Geez, half the metal vocals cut between 1980 and 1990 were probably through a 421. Europe (NWOBHM, not the band) was absolutely nuts on the thing.
 
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