Dumb Question about Converting

T

trader941

New member
Ok, I have a really retarded question that has to do with OTB mixing. I have a mackie 24.8 board, and i'm looking at setting myself up with 24 i/o so i can mix 24 channels OTB and record it all back to the computer.

The way i would do this would be DA everything to the board, then AD it back to the computer. I'm not crazy right? There isn't a way to do it without doing this? If i would have to do this, hypothetically, if i would want to add something, then later realize that i want something different, would i have to go through DA --> AD conversions over and over again?

Does this mean that everytime i add an outboard effect, or change the levels of something, or change the onboard EQ, my signal degrades every so slightly? I can't imagine that people would be mixing OTB all the time if this was the case! Is there something different that goes on in high end consoles that i'm not considering?

Forgive me if i ask horribly dumb questions, this is just the first time i've considered OTB mixing.

Thanks,
Kenny

Feel free to ask any more questions if you need more information.
 
Don't mix down until everything is tracked. If you want to remix then go back to the original project in the DAW and remix through the mixer. Simple enough. You don't re-record all the tracks each time, you just remix them to a new stereo file.

The bigger question is why you want to mix through the Mackie 8 Bus. A high-end analog summer would be one thing, but mixing ITB seems a much better all around solution than using the Mackie.
 
trader941 said:
Does this mean that everytime i add an outboard effect, or change the levels of something, or change the onboard EQ, my signal degrades every so slightly? I can't imagine that people would be mixing OTB all the time if this was the case! Is there something different that goes on in high end consoles that i'm not considering?
Click to expand...
What's different in high-end situations that you may not be considering is not only the likely high quality of the gear, but even more importantly, the higher level of experience of the people operating it. Unless they are outright experimenting, the number of jumps they have to make between domains per track is likely to be minimal; they figure out the sound they want, they dial it in, they do it, and they move on.

If they are experimenting or are figuring things out on the fly (which is not uncommon when you have the budget to do it) then they can eliminate the number of jumps they need to make in series by saving a safety copy of everything before the experimenting. Then when they go out to analog to try something, if it doesn't work or they want to add more or something, they can - if they are worried about generational loss at all - go back to a new copy of the safety and run that through the new, more complex path in one new pass instead of running the old copy through a second time.

But frankly, assuming quality, high-grade conversion and a clean, steady house clock running it all, a handful of two-way conversions will probably be the very least of their sonic worries.

G.
 
trader941 said:
... i'm looking at setting myself up with 24 i/o so i can mix 24 channels OTB and record it all back to the computer.

The way i would do this would be DA everything to the board, then AD it back to the computer. I'm not crazy right?
Click to expand...

No...you're not crazy. That's exactly how I do it.

trader941 said:
... if i would want to add something, then later realize that i want something different, would i have to go through DA --> AD conversions over and over again?
Click to expand...

NO...you don't add more stuff to the finished stereo mix.
If you decided you want to add something, you do it to the initial mix...get it?
IOW...every time you change/add something (the other stuff still stays there), you then simply remix all of it again...it's always only ONE D/A---OTB mix---A/D conversion…every time.

When I mix OTB...I'll just keep running through the mix over and over...changing/adding things. When I feel I like the mix...that's when I record my final A/D stereo mix....and even if I decide after that to make yet one more change/addition...I simply do a brand new A/D stereo mix that includes those new changes/addition.

You don't take your A/D stereo mix and add or change anything to it....make sense?
(You do that only when you master that final stereo mix...but those are then global adjustments, not individual track changes.)

Of course...you want to be sure you have the mix you want before you move on to the next song...because once you change the OTB mixer/outboard gear settings...it's a PITA putting it all back the way it was for the previous song just to make yet one more change.
I usually will mix a song...live with it for a couple of days...then move on to the next one.
(I also take really good notes and even do photo snapshots of my mixer and outboard gear settings for every song.)
 
Ok, so basically the goal is to do the same thing i described, except in one pass.

Save a master copy --> tweak --> go back to master and do everything you want at the same time --> win.

I've heard alot about what the first poster said. It's a lot of "you should just mix ITB because you won't get a good sound outta your equipment". I can't really be sure about that, but i believe that a great mix can be made, even on a mackie. I've heard really good mixes come from mackies, and really bad mixes come from Neve or SSL, it has more to do with the engineer. I'm not saying that i'm some kind of magical engineer, but i figured it might be worth it to have the capability to mix OTB or ITB, depending on the situation. Besides, it's just more fun to mix on a real board. :).

Thanks for your help guys.

Kenny
 
Even though it is the engineer that makes the mix, the equipment can degrade the signal. A great engineer can make a good sounding mix despite the shortcomings of the equipment.

The point about mixing itb is more about not degrading the signal than the skill level of the engineer. SSL's and Neve's have a good sounding personality or color to them. Mackie's don't.

But, like everyone else said, you send the individual tracks out to the mixer and only record the stereo mix back into the computer. If you want to change something, you remix it to a new stereo track on the computer. Nothing goes out and back and out and back and out and back. It's just one process.
 
trader941 said:
I've heard really good mixes come from mackies, and really bad mixes come from Neve or SSL, it has more to do with the engineer.
Click to expand...

Right, but in this case I was comparing ITB vs Mackie/OTB done by the same engineer, not different engineers. Given that, the benefits of automation and recall-able settings far outweigh the benefits of mixing in analog (which are what?). If he can get a good mix on the Mackie he can get a better mix ITB.
 
Well, let me ask a slightly different question then. Sorry for changing the topic on everyone.

Hypothetically, if i had some money to put into my studio, would i be better off doing which of the following...

--> Buying and 24 i/o AD DA converter, and all the cables to hook it up to my mixer.

--> Buying some kind of control surface so i can work ITB? I would also buy an 8 io converter, because the 6 channels i can record now isn't really enough (drums).

I actually like the pres on my mackie, and i don't think the EQs are terrible (as long as you cut and don't add). It basically seems to work fine for me, and sometimes i think it feels sad that it doesn't actually get used as a mixer, just for tracking/monitoring :D.

Thanks for any response.

Kenny
 
A control surface is neat, but it certainly isn't necessary. At least not as necessary as having enough inputs. I do this for a living and I don't have a control surface and all of my mixing is ITB.

I would vote for neither of your scenarios. I would get enough inputs to handle what ever you need and use any extra money on a special preamp (a golden vocal chain-type thing) and/or mics.

The mackie preamps work, but there are much better sounding ones out there. Having the choice between different colors of preamp is a cool thing to have.
 
I don't know. Because of room size (32x12ft room), it's hard to fit a band in, so i'm thinking of moving the mixing route of things as opposed to the tracking route. That might be the wrong decision, but i live outside of any cities, and the amount of clients that can neccesarily come to my studio is limited. I'd prefer to have other options, and mixing and/or mastering is the way to go there.

I do already have some pretty good mics (Shure SM7B, SM57, AKG C414 ect.), although my preamps are the ones on the mackie, so they are lacking a little bit. They lack warmth, but they do the job without making a lot of noise, so i'm pretty ok with them.

Maybe i'll use the money to work on my monitor chain. Right now my monitors pretty much suck, thats all i have to say about that.

Just gotta find some good clients who may come back for a visit now and then, and then i'll have something going.

I do have another question though. My understanding is that most studios make their living from repeat clients. My question is how do you find these great clients? In my area, bands obviously get together and break up all the time. Most bands are lucky to publish an album, much less get a return from it. Do most studios work with individual bands, or a bigger group (an indie label or something)? I would love to find just a few clients who would be looking for repeat business :P.

Pretty far off topic...it's alright i guess.... I guess i should get :spank: :D.

Thanks,
Kenny
 
trader941 said:
I do have another question though. My understanding is that most studios make their living from repeat clients. My question is how do you find these great clients? In my area, bands obviously get together and break up all the time. Most bands are lucky to publish an album, much less get a return from it. Do most studios work with individual bands, or a bigger group (an indie label or something)? I would love to find just a few clients who would be looking for repeat business :P.

Pretty far off topic...it's alright i guess.... I guess i should get :spank: :D.

Thanks,
Kenny
Click to expand...
You get repeat business by doing a good job the first time. The bands breaking up is actually good. Everyone in that band will now form a new band and bring that band to you. Now, instead of a single band, you have 3 or 4 bands. Those bands break up, etc...

The bands you do also have friends in other bands, which they will tell to come to you. All this is assuming you do a good job and don't alienate anyone.
 
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