Dithering

darnold

New member
Im a little confused how software dithering plugins work. Im making a huge upgrade on my studio within the next few months, and i will be recording everything in 24/96. my computer will now be used mainly for mixdown, and editing if i need it to. but my question is, when i mix everything down to the computer from 24/96, do i want to record into the computer 24/96, then use a dithering plugin? or do i just record it into the computer using 16/44.1? im guessing it would be much smoother to record into the computer 24/96 especially since it will be the only way digitally. but the thing i dont understand about the plugins, is when it dithers it, how does the software know that it has changed? or am i little off on how to do it?

any info would be awesome, thanks.

darnold
 
I'm not very clear on your question. Please explain what you are recording on, how you get it into your computer etc.
 
Usually you want to record in 96/24, since you then have a lot more data to fiddle around with. You can boost the signal without loosing significant resolution, and you don't have to be so foddly with the levels when you record. A db or two lost is no biggie then, simply.

So if your hardware can handle 96/24 I think you should go for it. Often you'll get less channels out of the system when you do, but if you have enough channels with 96/24 the it's fine, and in most systems you should be able to dither the tracks down to 44.1/16 if you need later.
 
Hi darnold,
taking into account that I haven't understood well what do you use to recor and what do you actually do to transfer the audio into the PC, I can tell you that the very important thing in dithering is that you have to perform that while you are making a bit-resolution reduction (24 to 16), and I say WHILE !! If you apply the dithering plug-in after this operation is completed you can only add noise and spikes to your audio without any improvement on the dynamic, ambience and whatever.

Anyway as long as you remain in the 24-bit domain you shouldn' have any problem, so record on PC in 24/96 !

I hope this was useful for you darnold, furthemore there was a Thread started by me in this Forum called "Dithering..." !!!!

Bye.
 
As noted above,when you go from 24 bit to 16 for CD burning,dithering avoids the nasty artifacts of having the last 16 bits truncated at the conversion.The trade off is a slightly higher noise floor in exchange for the signal staying clean at the lowest levels (like fadeouts and reverb tails).

Tom
 
well im gonna record 24/96 no matter anyway. my question is how to dither it, and if its worth dithering from 24/96 to 16/44.1 aside from recording it 16/44.1 from a 24/96 source. my recorder will be a Mackie 24/96 24 Track Harddisk recorder (their new one). so yes it can handle the 24/96. that will be used with a Roland VM-C7200 Digital mixer, then mixdown will be into the computer through a Motu 2408, probably digital if i can get a good ditherer. when i use the directx dithering plugin, isnt the file still considered 24/96? so what do i do then, convert it or save it? ive never tried it so i dont know exactly how it works. it might be just a stupid question but how does a directx plugin change the file format??


also, my next question, what are some good dithering plugins? vst or directx. i think ive got a waves and a steinberg one but i dunno which is better. ill just have to experiment.


darnold
 
Here we go again ;)

Before anyone starts giving advise.................. Anyone remember some of the posts I did regarding recording at 96kHz?

The reason I asked darnold for more information first:
I don't think he has considered the implications of recording at 24/96.

1 - Put the Mackie 24/96 in 96 mode - and you'll have a machine that eats diskspace so fast it will seem like you are recording on a floppy.

2 - Put the Mackie in 24/96 mode - and your 24 tracks don't exist anymore, you now have 12 only.

3 - Put the Mackie in 24/96 mode - fine, but first you have to buy the appropriate I/O cards, as the unit comes as standard with 24/48 I/O

4 - Put the mackie in 24/96 mode, in combination with the Roland VM - and you have a guaranteed serious clocking problem.

Want me to carry on? I can write a book on why its still not a good idea to record at 24/96.
Think .... the key mainframe console manufacturers, like Neve, Studer, Stagetec etc are only just making the move to REAL 24/96
In other words, you can still fork out hundreds of thousands and work at 24/48. And still most 24/48 systems do not sound nearly as good as they could / should because of various technical issues surrounding clocking, converters, noise shaping etc.

For manufacturers like Mackie, Tascam, Roland etc to offer product called "24/96" is nothing but marketing hype. They would be better served to make a product which sounds good at 48 first, before etc...etc....

Want me to carry on more? If they fail to get the basics right, do you think the dithering programmes most people offer are right?

Stick to 24/48, you'll be better off. If you want improvements on the quality you can get with the gear you mentioned at 24/48, look to a clock and good converters.
 
I haven't touched on this for a while...

There are two ways to "bit reduce" audio:

1 - Truncate. This is where the least significant bits (they turn out to be VERY significant...) are just not transferred. In the case of going from 24>16 bits, the lowest 8 bits would not get transferred. Only the 16 bit "above" it per se.

2 - Dithering. Dithering adds noise to the audio at a certain dB. For 16 bit dithering, it is around -93dB. Technically speaking, 16-bit audio is capable of 96dB of dynamic range. So, by applying dithering, you technically lose sound-to-noise-ratio (this can be LESS than 96dB on bad A/D/A converters!!!).

Now, you may be a wonderin' why you would want to add noise rather than just lose those "lower" bits. That is the hard part to explain. I will take a shot at it as I have not written a long essay on here for a couple months, and I am due! ;)

Truncating is bad! Why? Simply because those "least significant" bits hold valuable information in the audio the make the lower volume stuff contained within it sound more "real". You ears are capable of hearing a LOT more dynamic range than 96dB. Even though most equipment may have sound to noise ratio's that are less than 96dB, that does not mean that it is impossible to record a dynamic range that exceeds it. It just means that the lowest volume stuff will have a little bit of noise added to it. Most of us are really lucky to get real world 80dB of "clean" audio, where you have 80dB of s/n/r (sound to noise ratio...) So, we can hear more that 80dB of dynamic range, just that anything that is more than -80dB will have a little added noise to it from the electronics. No big deal really except if you want to record an orchestra. Even then, you can still achieve outstanding "depth" in the recording with that kind of s/n/r.

So why is this lower bit info important to audio? This is hard to explain, and I won't attempt to give "technical" explanations, just a wrap up on what was discovered by the "experts" the studies on it.

The lower bit info is important because it is what gives the recorded track a sense of "space" and "depth". If you are recording at 24 bit, you are "real world" on most converters getting around 104dB of dynamic range (I know, the specs on the converters claim much better than that...but if you have been around for a while, you KNOW that specs mostly lie in favor of making the equipment look better on paper then it sounds in real life...) That is the way of marketing these days, and that is not going to change!). So, you have about an extra 8dB of dynamic range that is possible with 24bit over 16 bit. Cool! This means that the quietest to loudest sound recorded is almost DOUBLED with 24 bit (approx. every 10dB increase/decrease in audio = doubling/halving of the perceived volume...) This improved dynamic range mean one can accurately capture reverberation in the room, which helps give the recorded sound a more "real" flavor. Cool!

Another thing about digital audio. This is important! Bit 1 only has 2 options: On and Off. What this means to you while recording is that stuff that is recorded at the lowest levels of the dynamic range has few options for being recorded. If for instance, your recorded part has sonic information that hovers around the bottom of the dynamic range of the converter, if it turns down even a little bit, that last bit of information may or may not activate. The audio may have slipped BELOW. This can be a disaster during note's that fade out!!! The more dynamic range we have, then better, because our ear is VERY sensitive to low volume sonic information! More dynamic range available = truer representation of the original sound! So, if the fade out is hovering around -104dB and say drops down to -105, well, that sonic information is lost! Oops......

So, truncating is bad! You lose low level information in audio! Your audio suffers from sonic "space" because when you originally recorded it with a higher dynamic range available, you made "decisions" about the "quality" of the audio based upon a superior dynamic range. The whole sense of space in the sound will be mostly lost when you remove those "least significant" bits. To your ears though, they become indeed "significant".

Dithering! Can't live with it, can't live without it! "Quote by Bob Katz. The internet GOD of digital audio......"

Some smart guy thought out all that stuff about losing lower bit information and had an idea that there may be a better way! Thank god!

Dithering adds a CONSTANT "shaped noise" (noise at certain frequencies. Limited band.) at a certain -dB. In the case of 16 bit, it is around -93 dB. Why does it do that? This is clever!

We know that as the lower bits are only used, like in the case of a fade out, that there are less bits to capture small changes in the volume. When you are recording to digital, the audio is actually "dithered" while recording because the voltage at the A/D converter may fall between two bits. So, the voltage is averaged up or down to fit a certain bit. If you are recording "hot" to the A/D converter, this is far less of a problem because the "upper" more "significant" bit have finer division to represent the audio. So, when the voltage drops, there are less options for accurately capturing the sound. Thus, when it is dithered while recording, lower level stuff will have "quantinization errors" which tends to sound like distortion because the representation of the input voltage is actually getting shifted up or down so that the audio can be stored to a fix bit. This is usually only noticeable at on the last bit or two or three. Above that, you cannot hear the quantiniztion errors as distortion.

So, if a constant noise is applied at a certain -dB, Those bits will always be "on". This is important. This means that even though the input voltage falls below what the converter can deal with, the last bit is always on, so any audio that is below the dynamic range of the last bit can still be stored to the last bit. The incoming voltage and noise are "mixed" together. So, the noise is actually keeping that last bit on all the time and blending the music with it, so very quiet stuff can be recorded to the last bit, and you can still usually hear some volume difference! VERY COOL!!! We are cheating here! We are improving the DYNAMIC RANGE of the converter so we can have music that exceeds it's specs! Wow!!!

Oops! There is a trade off. Noise!!!

Yup, we ADD noise with dithering. But, this noise is "shaped" noise, meaning it is not "across the whole frequency spectrum. Shaped noise in dithering is in fact usually out of the most sensitive region of our hearing, 2KHz-5KHz. This does not mean we cannot HEAR the noise, it just means that we are less apt to hear it as a noise that conflicts with musical content. At very low volumes, like around -93dB, we would have to have out speakers pretty darn loud to hear say a 10KHz noise. But, we could still hear the 2KHz-5KHz stuff very well at a much lower speaker volume. Refer and study the Fletcher/Munson Relative Loudness Curves to see what I mean.

So, dithering adds that noise, and we may even hear it, BUT, the noise is not distracting. So, that "nice" noise in this case is keeping our "lowest bit" activated to "on" all the time, thus, incoming audio can be "blended" with it and stored to that lowest bit, and still retain dynamic range. This gives the illusion of more dynamic range. Cool!

Now, it is important to remember that dynamic range and signal to noise ratio SORT OF work hand in hand. A A/D/A converter can have excellent dynamic range specs, but if the noise it creates is in the most sensitive part of our hearing, 2KHz-5KHz, the effective dynamic range is effected! Signal to noise ratios are ALWAYS LOWER than the dynamic range capability. But, if the noise is in a less sensitive region of our hearing, than the noise will not "mask" incoming audio. Cool eh?

So, when you have 24-bit audio, you have outstanding dynamic range. You can really hear DEEP into the sound! But, if you truncate that dynamic range to 16 bit audio, you lose a lot of that low level information, which tends to decrease the amount of "space" and "depth" to your recording. Oops. But, dithering adds that constant noise at a range of frequencies that are out of the ears sensitive region, so, you can actually retain quite a bit of that dynamic range. Say maybe around 19 bits if the audio was recorded quiet enough (not so much noise from the electronics).

So, when you dither, you add noise, but can potentially gain dynamic range. You add dithering before you truncate the audio, so that the least bit contains more actual sonic information.

Okay, enough of that. On to other things.

Sometimes, your recording may be so noisy that you may be “self dithering” it. Meaning that your combined noise from electronics (preamps, room noise, etc….) are keeping a constant noise going at a certain –dB. Dithering after the fact may not do anything other than add MORE noise. So, in some cases, and mainly with very low end gear that most home recording guys use, dithering MAY NOT be necessary because you do not have an effective dynamic range to your recorded tracks due to sound to noise ratios being pretty bad. If the noise you are introducing to the audio is in a sensitive part of your hearing, it will mask audio content there anyway, so you effectively have less dynamic range available. Get it? So, while S/N/R and Dynamic Range are two different things, one effects the other.

High-end audio gear tends to have much better s/n/r than cheaper gear, thus, is capable of more dynamic range. This is the reason why high dollar equipment tends to provide sound that has more “depth” and “space” to it, because it is not creating noise in your sensitive hearing region that masks musical content at very low volumes. You can hear reverberation in the room much better, and this helps keep the sound more real sounding. Remember, you ear is VERY sensitive, and has a very wide dynamic range available to it (around 19-20 bits).

The only way to actually determine whether you need to dither your 24 bit audio or not is to try it both ways. Truncate a version of the mix to 16 bit, and dither another version of it. Listen to the quietest passages at very high volumes and listen. Does the truncated version sound like it has less depth and separation at low volumes compared to the dithered version? If so, you will want to dither. If not, you probably have a noise floor that is higher than what dithering would do, this, dithering may not be needed.

Enough of that. Use your ears. Decide based on that what is best for your audio.

About plug-ins that dither. The Waves L1 Ultramaximizer has a pretty good sounding dithering scheme to it. The Wavelab dithering scheme isn’t too bad either. I like the sound of the Waves L1 better though. Remember, there may be even better ones available, but usually, only in TDM format (for ProTools) and in stand alone D/A converters.

Hope this helps a bit. ;)

Ed
 
Oh, and sjoko2 is dead right in his last post!

And to add to that, if you don't have a great sample rate converter, you may want to record your audio at 44.1 sampling rate. If you are going to run the individual recorded tracks out to an analog mixer, then by all means, record at the highes sampling rate you can effectively do! Otherwise, you might want to stay at 44.1 so that you don't have to sample rate convert with a crappy converter.

None of my post above had anything to do with the quality of the components you may be using! Low end gear, even in digital usually = less than stellar sound, and in some cases can degrade audio significantly. Buyer beware, AND AWARE!!!

Ed
 
dither?

I understand that if you record in 24 bits you have to dither it down to 16 in order for CD burning.

Now my question is: What if I recorded in 16 bits? Then I did all the editing and mixing, and then wanted to burn the thing onto a CD. So it is somehow less than 16 bits. Right? So does dithering make up the bits lost during mixing and editing?

It's always good to be a newbie. :D
 
Re: dither?

I understand that if you record in 24 bits you have to dither it down to 16 in order for CD burning.

You don't HAVE to "dither". You can just truncate. Refer to above post.

Now my question is: What if I recorded in 16 bits? Then I did all the editing and mixing, and then wanted to burn the thing onto a CD. So it is somehow less than 16 bits. Right? So does dithering make up the bits lost during mixing and editing?

ANY DSP (digital signal processing) you do to the originally recorded sound will actually INCREASE bit depth. This increased bit depth needs to be dithered back to 16 bit properly to retain a pleasent sound (if it doesn't dither it, it will truncate it!!! :(). Some software does not even dither!!! Some of it doesn't do it very well. To assure that you get at least a decent dithering scheme will mixing in software, it is a good idea to apply the L1 plugin over the stereo buss and have it dithering to 16 bits.

It's always good to be a newbie. :D

Indeed. Far less typing to explain stuff to people! ;)

Ed
 
Originally posted by darnold
well im gonna record 24/96 no matter anyway. my question is how to dither it, and if its worth dithering from 24/96 to 16/44.1 aside from recording it 16/44.1 from a 24/96 source.

You are not making any sense whatsoever. If you have decided to go with recording in 24/96, then why are you talking about recording in 16/44?

when i use the directx dithering plugin, isnt the file still considered 24/96?

If you dither down from 24/96 to 16/44, then no, it's no longer 24/96.
 
thanks everyone!

thanks a ton for all the info.

regebro, im not going to record at 16/44.1, it will be 24/96 (actually from what read it would be better to do 24/48). what im saying is to get the recording onto CD, i will need to put it into 16/44.1. so what i was asking is, would it be better to dither it, or if it would be alright to record the mixdown in 16/44.1.

sjoko2, thanks a ton for the info, but i dont quite understand why i would have clocking problems. i will not be using digital inputs but the analog inputs, the digital mixer is mainly for the power, portability, effects, automation (basically everything is built in) etc. but hey, i havnt boughten my new setup yet, im gettin around $10,000 to spend. if you got any ideas on a good way to spend it let me know, im available for other options. so you are saying that the new mackie 24/96 harddisk recorder cannot record at 24/96? im a little confused on that also. also, you say that it wont be able to handle 24 simultaneous tracks of 24/96?? from what i know is that it should do like 100 hours 24/96 24 tracks. i dunno really, so im glad you brought this up. i will also discuss this with my sweetwater sales engineer. thanks a ton.

sonusman, thanks a ton for your response. i now understand what its doing. however, im sorry that i gave you the idea that this will be an all digital setup. i will still be using the analog inputs and outputs between the mackie recorder and the mixer. the only time i might do digital input is when doing mixdown, but it is not required. i would be mixing down into sound forge 5.0, and hopefully, i can use a software ditherer plugin from there. then i was thinking i can just save the file as 16/44.1. is that bad? let me know, this is a really knew setup for me. but your whole thing on ditherering and truncated is wonderfull. i understand.

thanks again for everyones help. if you have suggestions please let me know. i wonna make sure i get this figured out before i buy my new setup (i dont wonna spend $6000 on a digital mixer and harddisk recorder if its not gonna do what i need it to do). however, i would like to get out of computer sequencers, which is why i liked this setup, because everything could be controlled with the mixer. i was also buying an effects expansion for the mixer so i could put like 8 reverbs on and stuff. i thought it was pretty cool. but let me know, i dont wonna make any mistakes.

later,
darnold
 
whoops

whoops, i did miss the mackie mdr24/96 is only 24/48 analog I/O. sorry about that :). thanks for bringin that up so i wasnt disappointed when it came :D.

darnold
 
I never assumed that you would be "all digital", and that would matter little when we talk about bit reduction and sample rate conversion.

Your best best if you are just going to the computer, and are NOT going to do anything to it on the computer, such as eq the mix, compress the mix, limit the mix, then you should just mix to the computer at 16 bit 44.1KHz sampling rate. IF however you are going to mix to the computer, then eq, compress, limit, etc... the stereo .wav file, then you will probably want to record at the highest bit depth you can going to the computer, do what you need to do on the computer with it, then reduced the bit depth with dithering as the very last step. If you insist on recording onto the computer with a higher sampling rate, you may consider using 88.2KHz, as when it comes time to sample rate convert the file to 44.1, the sample rate converter will be less apt to mess things up compared to 48KHz, or 96KHz. You probably can't afford a great sample rate converter so this is prudent advice.

Ed
 
cool

sorry it was late one night and i was getting a little confused with everything. ok sounds good. yah i will probably need to do a little pre-mastering on the computer after. as i just found out, the D/A converters on the mackie mdr24 are only 24/48, so i will not have the 88.2 or 96 option anyway. i am still fine with the setup however. i might just end up record at 16/44.1.

thanks alot for all the info sonusman. it has really helped me out a ton. thanks to everyone else also. if there is still more anyone would like to say please let me know. ive got a month or so before i buy the new set up and i dont wonna make a wrong decision, although i do trust my sweetwater sales engineer, but i havnt talked to him much about the details. thanks.

darnold
 
Sonus man said :
To assure that you get at least a decent dithering scheme will mixing in software, it is a good idea to apply the L1 plugin over the stereo buss and have it dithering to 16 bits.


What about if you record at 24/96, but never intend on going down to 16/44.1 ? Should one still apply dither? Should I still put an L1 on the master channel?
 
if you record at anything higher than 16/44.1 you have to dither down.

Only if you are converting directly to audio CD format. I'm actually planning on going to analog, and then back to digital. So I will not need to do a digital bit or sample-rate conversion. Anyway, the days of 16/44.1 audio are numbered.
 
bdemenil said:

So I will not need to do a digital bit or sample-rate conversion. Anyway, the days of 16/44.1 audio are numbered.
How are you going from analog back to digital? If your bringing the analog back into a digital system then your at the mercy of the adc, which maybe 16 bit linear, but most likely its not. Id burn a 24 bit cd and have a mastering house figure out the best way to get the audio onto a red book cd if thats your goal. Im pretty sure Mastering houses carry several types of dithering techniques as well as noise shapers, SBM, UV-22, POW-R and the Ultramaximizer are the most common methods. IMO the only way to get the dynamic range of 24 bit digital onto a red book is through some sort of re-dithering process mentioned above. If you send it out to analog your introducing noise in an uncontrolled manner, BIAS noise which you will drag back into the digital realm making the situation worse. Like I said, just an opinion.

Peace,
Dennis
 
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