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Thread: Dither - My Ears can't hear it

  1. #101
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    In other news, today I scored another box of rigid fiberglass. I have already deployed 3 boxes in the room (2 of them 4"!), but while the mix position is just ducky, the back of the room gets a little squirrelly.

    I was out of space to hang from walls and ceilings, so I'm building a portable 3 panel Z-fold gobo Again, each panel 4" thick.

    That ought to be just the ticket!

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by mshilarious View Post
    In other news, today I scored another box of rigid fiberglass. I have already deployed 3 boxes in the room (2 of them 4"!), but while the mix position is just ducky, the back of the room gets a little squirrelly.

    I was out of space to hang from walls and ceilings, so I'm building a portable 3 panel Z-fold gobo Again, each panel 4" thick.

    That ought to be just the ticket!

    Are you using Roxul ?

    Or is that different ?

  3. #103
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    I'm bumping this because I have new information.

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen View Post
    But what if I'm right about bopping Dana Delaney?
    Well, that's in your dreams - and mine too! - but this is reality:

    http://www.3daudioinc.com/3db/showthread.php?t=12836

    Read 'em and weep. Or come up with your own better tests if you think mine are flawed.

    --Ethan

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post
    Or come up with your own better tests if you think mine are flawed.
    Your tests are well-intentioned but very colored and extremely limited. All you have demonstrated there that one person reports that he could not hear one type of dither (you never mention which one, BTW) on one particular song on one particular system. I'll buy that. I never claimed otherwise. I'm not weeping over that result any more than I am weeping over not seeing Ms' Delaney this weekend, because I know that neither one can be taken very seriously.

    I have already defined here many of the major parameters required for a true test of a subject so marginal and so controversial. I also have offered to design, build and host such a test, and accept it's results however they come out. I have also said that it will just have to wait for a little while because I have other work to get out of the way first.


    G.
    [SIZE=1][B][COLOR=DarkSlateBlue]Glen J. Stephan,
    SouthSIDE Multimedia Productions[/COLOR]
    [COLOR=DarkGreen]RECORDING RESOURCES AND INFO SITE:[/COLOR]
    [URL="www.independentrecording.net"][SIGPIC][/SIGPIC][/URL][/B][/SIZE]

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post
    I'm bumping this because I have new information.
    I see nothing new here Ethan. I think Lynn summed up this issue nicely:

    "I would like to add that no one here should be debating the audibility of dither. It's clearly audible, if you've ever done any tests reducing shorter word lengths. I think the discussion here is focusing rather on the threshold of audibility of dither.".

    Sometimes you can hear the difference, sometimes you can't. That's pretty much the end it. If the effects are masked with other types of harmonic distortion and noise, or you lower levels, it's much more difficult to hear, but it's still there. Just because one sprays the bathroom with deodorizer it doesn't mean that there isn't crap in the air.
    Tom Volpicelli
    The Mastering House Inc.
    www.masteringhouse.com

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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post
    I'm bumping this because I have new information.



    Well, that's in your dreams - and mine too! - but this is reality:

    http://www.3daudioinc.com/3db/showthread.php?t=12836

    Read 'em and weep. Or come up with your own better tests if you think mine are flawed.

    --Ethan
    So, a Soundblaster and some bass traps should provide commercial results?
    They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -B.F.

  7. #107
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    More info regarding this thread:

    http://www.gearslutz.com/board/maste...ing-101-a.html

    We could debate this ad-nauseum, as for me I'm done.
    Tom Volpicelli
    The Mastering House Inc.
    www.masteringhouse.com

    Selected Credits

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by masteringhouse View Post
    More info regarding this thread:

    http://www.gearslutz.com/board/maste...ing-101-a.html

    We could debate this ad-nauseum, as for me I'm done.
    Interesting quote from Ethan himself in that thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethan
    Absolutely! I'm not arguing against dither. I'm merely arguing that it's not as important as most people believe it is.
    Ah, now this is a different story. It's one thing to say that dither is meaningless. It's another to say that it's not meaningless, just not a huge earthshaker. I'm not sure too many folks would disagree with that second one, actually.

    What the argument boils down to is the dichotomy between two perspectives, both presented very sloppily:

    On the one side is the view that dither is irrelevant because it is, at best, at the very threshold of audibility. They defend that viewpoint with very poorly designed listening tests that actually tell us very little other than in one very narrow, very specific instance, audibility is in question.

    On the other side are those that believe that if something causes a measurable difference, it's relevant, even if it's audibility is, at best, subtle or intermittant. And since it can make any difference whatsoever, it would be bordering on negligent not to do it. They back their arguments with pictures and digital theory that actually tell us very little other than dither is a measureable effect, but says nothing about it's actual audiblity. There are a few who claim to have platinum ears who claim they can hear and ID dither anywhere and everywhere, but these are usually the guys that say they can hear a pin drop in a vacuum.

    All those tests and polls on both sides tell us nothing definitive. Let's face it, if any of them did, the "argument" would be over.

    The problem is, dither is not a definitive, black/white thing. It never will be. It will always be a game of percentages. This is why the argument will never stop. It is sometimes audible to some, sometimes not. Sometimes sensed by others, sometimes not. Some people wouldn't/couldn't hear it if it clubbed them over the heads (lets face it, we live in a society that for the most part can't hear or doesn't notice a difference between a 24-bit WAV and a 128k MP3.)

    But as long as there is a core - no matter how large or small - that claim they can sense the difference, it seems to me that all the rest is irrelevant. There is, at that point, no reason for the detailers and technicians to discard the process, or to even argue about it.

    G.
    [SIZE=1][B][COLOR=DarkSlateBlue]Glen J. Stephan,
    SouthSIDE Multimedia Productions[/COLOR]
    [COLOR=DarkGreen]RECORDING RESOURCES AND INFO SITE:[/COLOR]
    [URL="www.independentrecording.net"][SIGPIC][/SIGPIC][/URL][/B][/SIZE]

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen View Post
    I have already defined here many of the major parameters required for a true test of a subject so marginal and so controversial. I also have offered to design, build and host such a test, and accept it's results however they come out. I have also said that it will just have to wait for a little while because I have other work to get out of the way first.
    Excellent. When you're ready let me know, and I'll be glad to host the test files if you need that.

    --Ethan

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by NL5 View Post
    So, a Soundblaster and some bass traps should provide commercial results?
    Sure, why not?

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