3 guitars all playing together seperation tips

Really struggling with 3 guitars all with a bit of overdrive varying from slightly to more distorted, playing counter riffs similar to the strokes/Xtc/Television/Blur.

No single notes a lot of Rhythm/Lead riffs two strings etc.. and again countering each other to create an off kilter angular sound... If this makes any sense radiohead do it quite a bit but usually with cleaner guitars.

I've been subtracting from one frequency one guitar and boosting the same frequency on the other when its just two guitars but no idea how to go about it with 3.

Anyone got any big tips for getting each part to be recognisable if focused in on ?
 
IME this is an arrangement issue in re: the average listener requires a mix that focuses on one element at a time and everything else supports it at that moment.

In operation that means having three guitars going at the same time is a constantly shifting balancing act.

I have the undesireable habit of coming up with more and more guitar parts and my method for dealing with the issue goes something like this:

I listen to the whole composition with each guitar panned separately (LCR) and note which part i want to hear at a particular moment with a marker in the DAW and a written list if necessary. Once i know my schedule of what get's featured when, then i can decide where to place each part (again. at that moment). It seems counter intuitive but i feel that it's actually better to move the parts around as it creates interest for the listener

Also you might consider adding them one at a time, say the first by itself until the first chorus , then add the second, etc. Three guitars from the very start can often be overwhelming
 
Its funny that you mention this as tonight for the first time I noticed exactly what you are talking about. I was listening to a Blur track called caramel and when listening with speakers you don't pick up on it but with headphones I could hear guitars tracks completely cut out whilst another would come in and it was constantly doing this for me this sounded awful on the earphones as you would hear a whole guitar just cut out like the amp had lost power then come back in... but on stereo speakers it creates a pink floydish atmosphere with different elements popping up and fading away.

I've thrown this quick track together excuse the timing and lack of polished finish it was just to show the kind of thing im going for and if it's achievable without removing whole tracks at certain points.

The bassline is actually more melodic however I played it straight to allow the guitars to be the focus for this quick throw together and I haven't added crashes and other percussion and obviously no vocals either.

I could turn down the central rhythm part however again there is tiny add ons esp the chorus that I really want to shine through whilst the other two guitars are duelling which is leaving me with an overdriven mess.

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You might be able to automate (ride) the levels with a volume envelope depending on what needs to have more focus at whatever time. I'm getting the impression that the countermelodic stuff when there's 3 guitars is getting buried by the rhythm guitar. I'm also wondering what it might sound like if the rhythm guitar had around half as much gain, or even a clean sound. Especially when all 3 guitars are playing.

If that doesn't work out then simplifying the arrangement as suggested can do a lot. You'd still include the key parts obviously.
 
...I could hear guitars tracks completely cut out whilst another would come in and it was constantly doing this for me this sounded awful on the earphones as you would hear a whole guitar just cut out like the amp had lost power then come back in... but on stereo speakers it creates a pink floydish atmosphere with different elements popping up and fading away.

It took me awhile to mentally get past this type of thing, too. I use to always approach a song recording as though there was an imaginary band playing, and generally, if you have a band, everyone tends to play their parts straight through the song. You never see a band member just stop during some section. They might switch to some different part, but everyone plays.
So the idea of another guitar or keyboard track or whatever...just popping in for the chorus or whatever...seemed odd to me at first, but the reality is that recording is not about capturing a live band performance, for the most part. Yeah, you can do it that way, it's a valid approach...but much of modern record music is about a production that goes beyond the live realm of performance capability.

Of course...the opposite end of that is where people will lose their minds and have a dozen guitars and multiple layers of keys and other elements...because the can (especially in the DAW)...and then it gets harder to give each element any space, or you end up dropping elements in/out of the mix to keep everything up front and more manageable.
Somewhere there is a happy balance...but it's usually dictated by your song, the arrangement and your production goals. If you can work a lot of that out in your head during pre-production...then it's easier to record it with all the elements in mind. If you just stack and stack...you run out of room and/or it's a sonic mess.

I've gone a bit heavier with tracks/elements...but nothing like I see with some modern productions where there's 100 tracks or more. I'm looking to do more sparse stuff with some tracks in the near future...not worry about filling up a mix with elements, but rather allowing just a handful of elements to really breath and create that "space between notes" so to speak. So in some ways, I will get back to thinking about some new songs/arrangements more like capturing a band rather than an embellished production....though I still love doing more involved stuff too, and it's OK to drop tracks/elements in/out of the mix. :)
 
You might be able to automate (ride) the levels with a volume envelope depending on what needs to have more focus at whatever time. I'm getting the impression that the countermelodic stuff when there's 3 guitars is getting buried by the rhythm guitar. I'm also wondering what it might sound like if the rhythm guitar had around half as much gain, or even a clean sound. Especially when all 3 guitars are playing.

If that doesn't work out then simplifying the arrangement as suggested can do a lot. You'd still include the key parts obviously.

I think my biggest problem is im giving myself too big an ask, im trying to produce a song at the same level as a radiohead track and coming up way too short.

I don't particularly want all 3 guitar tracks to be fighting for the focus, however when listening to say a radiohead track... there is always one guitar buried way back in the mix but if you choose to listen closely to it you can make out whats being played very clearly.... similar to someone shouting in the distance.. you cant hear them over the noise that's closer but if you really focus in what they are saying is clear enough to be made out.

I don't seem to be getting this right in the eq side of things that I can bury the track further back but if I chose to try and focus on it I could hear whats being played clearly.

I guess that's the trick im looking to learn.. and im guessing it all about eq ? or does reverb and other things lack that also play a big part as its something I haven't dove into yet... I've just been recording the tracks and then levelling them and tinkering with eq so far.
 
Processing can often be a double edged sword. If it frames the performance in the right way it can add focus or the right texture, ambience or whatever. It's very easy to overdo it, which can make things muddy real quick. If you hear a tone in your head that could be made to happen with a gentle bumb with an EQ, that's fine. I like to keep things very dry and unprocessed, at least initially until I've spent a fair amount of time playing with balances. The midrange is where it all happens with guitar.

One thing that can help if you're going to layer guitar parts is changing the sound of each guitar. Different amp/guitar/pickup type and/or gain structure.

Having a part back in the mix so it's there if you focus on it but not stepping on the other parts is totally fair game. If everything's up front you're going to run out of real estate quickly. It can be hard to get used to the mute button being your friend sometimes. Even simplifying a rhythm part so maybe it's blazing full chords in the chorus but laying back or maybe playing single notes out of the chord when other elements come in to play can help sometimes. Dynamic changes and allowing a mix to breathe can make a big difference.
 
Processing can often be a double edged sword. If it frames the performance in the right way it can add focus or the right texture, ambience or whatever. It's very easy to overdo it, which can make things muddy real quick. If you hear a tone in your head that could be made to happen with a gentle bumb with an EQ, that's fine. I like to keep things very dry and unprocessed, at least initially until I've spent a fair amount of time playing with balances. The midrange is where it all happens with guitar.

One thing that can help if you're going to layer guitar parts is changing the sound of each guitar. Different amp/guitar/pickup type and/or gain structure.

Having a part back in the mix so it's there if you focus on it but not stepping on the other parts is totally fair game. If everything's up front you're going to run out of real estate quickly. It can be hard to get used to the mute button being your friend sometimes. Even simplifying a rhythm part so maybe it's blazing full chords in the chorus but laying back or maybe playing single notes out of the chord when other elements come in to play can help sometimes. Dynamic changes and allowing a mix to breathe can make a big difference.

IS it something specifically about guitars and distorted ones that cause this issue more than any other instrument?

I'm just listening to a few 80s synth led songs that to my ear have at least 4 or 5 different things going on at once but each are clearly audible and all have there very own space... yet when I listen to songs with heavy guitar for example helter skelter by the beatles even the when the guitars are isolated.. they are all fighting with each other a barely distinguishable from each other almost like one massive noise with tiny spikes hear and there of individuality.

I mean if you can play 6 synth parts and make them all stand out and not clash with EQ and such, then surely the same can be done for a guitar ? or is there more frequencies being taken up by a guitar or more specifically a distorted one?
 
Distorted guitars lose their dynamics and clarity of tone...so they don't "pop" as much.
When recording them, it's often the case that whatever the distorted tone is in the room that sounds good to your ears...take about 30% of the distortion off, sometimes more...if you want it to sound as good to the mic and in the mix. Always err on the side of less. :)
 
IS it something specifically about guitars and distorted ones that cause this issue more than any other instrument?

I'm just listening to a few 80s synth led songs that to my ear have at least 4 or 5 different things going on at once but each are clearly audible and all have there very own space... yet when I listen to songs with heavy guitar for example helter skelter by the beatles even the when the guitars are isolated.. they are all fighting with each other a barely distinguishable from each other almost like one massive noise with tiny spikes hear and there of individuality.

I mean if you can play 6 synth parts and make them all stand out and not clash with EQ and such, then surely the same can be done for a guitar ? or is there more frequencies being taken up by a guitar or more specifically a distorted one?

Distortion adds harmonics by it's very nature which is inevitably a more complex waveform, IOW there's "more there", so yes, you are correct, it is harder to have more than one playing at the same time.

A few of many possible ways to help this situation is to make the parts less similar by doing things like using different guitars for different parts, making some parts a lot less distorted/cleaner and using filtering esp high cut to move parts further back in the mix.

For instance, the rhythm guitar part can often be treated as a "pad" when other guitars are in front IOW a high pass filter starting ~ 2-4 k pulled down 5-8 db will sound terrible by itself but when in the track you can actually increase the volume of that track a bit to keep it from disappearing completely without having it compete with the upfront instruments, though it frankly wont disappear even if you leave it turned down. The filters are then automated so that when the rhythm needs to be more forward they are disabled or pulled up.

Less high end = further away to our ears and can be used to move focus/apparent depth
 
This is all good stuff guys ill try these little tweaks to see if I can get a little more separation. And it's true I have much less issues when im recording with clean undistorted guitars I can usually get good separation with just a little chorus and things it's just always distorted that I struggle to hear things coming through and end up turning up... turning up... turning up till I end up turning everything down and starting again.

The less distortion thing I know would work but then the track goes from being an energetic pop punk track to a clean pop track just with losing that slight edge, this track in particular I was aiming for an XTC Making plans with Nigel meets televisions marque moon... and trying to find that middle ground of the cleaner sound of marquee moon mixed with the distorted backdrop of the television song.

Aslong as I'm making progress I don't tend to lose interest it's just when I'm constantly hitting a brick wall that I end up switching it off, so I can either be having fun for four hours or giving up after a miserable hour and relistening to King crimson and wondering how they do it lol

What does Reverb do beyond what I hear, I mean I can hear what it does but how does it help or affect a mix is it just used purely for creating an echo or sustained sound or is there an actual function for using it in a mix beyond the superficial ? I have an idea why eq works by removing and boosting certain frequencies but I also hear about reverb and compression ( which I still don't know how to work properly either) being vital to mixing.

While im on the topic any good videos of a well know producer working on a track doing the things were discussing would be great to hear what he is hearing and see how he physically alters things to get it to sound right... been trying to see if there is a Stephen street one as he must have had a hard time with johnny marrs layered guitars,.
 
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So ive been tampering around and I think I know what the main issue im having is... certain parts of all the tracks are too quiet or too loud depening on how hard ive strummed,plucked or hit/drum.

Im guessing this is where compression plays a part stopping the tracks going above a certain level and bring up the parts where it dips for a consistent level throughout.
 
The $64 dollar question. How much is not enough and what to do about it???

Arrangement arrangement arrangement......There's some great information the posts already. Not sure I can improve on it.

It's really hard to separate yourself from things that you have played into an arrangement of a song you've written and are producing. Lot's of "you" in that statement. Getting the picture yet?

Like I said it's really hard to let go of things but it is something you have to know how to do when producing. I tell my clients right up front and especially if I'm getting tracks that I haven't tracked...."My red edit pen has a broad tip and if you are going to be offended by what I might take out or put somewhere else then I'm not the producer for you"

My best tip I can give you is this....When looking at the tracks in a song arrangement you really have to seriously ask yourself, 'does this particular track serve the song?'
 
So ive been tampering around and I think I know what the main issue im having is... certain parts of all the tracks are too quiet or too loud depening on how hard ive strummed,plucked or hit/drum.

Im guessing this is where compression plays a part stopping the tracks going above a certain level and bring up the parts where it dips for a consistent level throughout.

DO NOT become enamored with a compressor. If you are not really sure what a compressor does then use it sparingly if at all. It can be a marvelous tool for shaping the sound of something but using it as a repair tool leads to many 'other' problems
 
If you're not sure about compression, look at volume automation first. I'm not sure what you're recording on, but pretty much any DAW will allow you to draw volume envelopes.
 
DO NOT become enamored with a compressor. If you are not really sure what a compressor does then use it sparingly if at all. It can be a marvelous tool for shaping the sound of something but using it as a repair tool leads to many 'other' problems

hey cavedog this is a track that has 3 guitars in the intro which im trying to get with my song, all his parts sound very separate from each other and even when the third one comes in it doesn't swamp the song but can still be made out clearly. despite all 3 guitars being very forward in the mix the bass and drums still have a nice full sound and don't appear to be any less quiet than the guitars but it all just meshes great to create a thumping track.

This is what im trying to achieve with my 3 guitar parts.. they play a similar style and counter and at the same time I want to have drum and bass really driving the song, I get that sometimes a certain part is uncalled for and can be taken out and I have cut tracks when I felt isn't adding to the mood or feel of the song in the past.. the hardest part for me is I can hear how it should sound in my head its just getting the know how to make it happen.

Freakin' Out / All Over Me by Graham Coxon Official | Free Listening on SoundCloud
 
Reference tracks not available in my country, but listening to your original 3 guitar mix... all 3 of the guitar tones are pretty much sounding the "same" to me... so regardless of what you're playing on each part... they all blend together. Not only is it a matter of "EQ" but overall "Tone". Using 3 totally different sounding "tones" for each part is probably what you're really trying to accomplish. That is how you can focus on one part over the other, because it "sounds" different. Using different guitars with different effects and different amps with different settings is what you'll want to do first. Then you'll want to use EQ to further shape and balance your sounds. The only time you'd even care about having "similar" sounding "tones" for guitars, is if you're double tracking left/right rhythm guitars or leads... even then having slight variances in tone is better than playing the same part through the same exact amp with the same exact settings with the same exact guitar.

Also, I'll repeat the "arrangement" thing... try and figure out "which" parts of the left/right guitar parts are what "make" the part... you'd be surprised at how little you actually need to play... I struggle with this as well, I have a bad habit of wanting to play a note on every 8th note... leaving no space... but that's what you need to do... create space. If you already have the "rhythm" guitar in the center strumming along on every 8th note... you don't need both left/right guitars playing notes there too. Hope this helps.
 
Trying not to repeat but if I have more that 2 I make sure I keep the reverb down or off. Even on 2 I will use different setting. But really I tend to only have one be the focuse while other guitars support for balance or whatever.
 
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