Song order, who decides?

R

RAMI

Guest
To the pro masterers here, how often are you asked to do everything including deciding the song order on a mastering job?

I would think that sometimes the song order is up to you, sometimes the artist (or producer) decides, and sometimes the artist/producer might know where they want certain songs but leaves the rest up to you?

When it's left up to you, how do you go about putting it together, let's say for a rock project. Do you take tempos into consideration, the keys of the songs, the mood??? Probably all of those? I'm also guessing that you'd approach an unkown act differently than a "name" artist"?

Just curious how the decision-making takes place when it comes to song order.
 
Maybe 1 in 20 asks for advice on song order. Used to be slightly more.

Those are big decisions... Usually band meetings with indies, focus-groups with labels, etc.

It happens -- Usually it's more of a "we know we want these two first, but if you have any advice for these three after that and then we want these two in order, etc." type thing.
 
Greg_L said:
I chose and will choose the song order for every album ever made.
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Yeah me too.

I was actually wondering more about the how and why people arrange their CD's. Start off with a bang but save the biggest band for later? Just put them in the order of what you think your best tunes are, starting with the "best"? Think more along the lines of tempo and build up to faster tunes?

I do it by instinct more than anything I guess. But I wonder if I should put more thought in it.
 
RAMI said:
Yeah me too.

I was actually wondering more about the how and why people arrange their CD's. Start off with a bang but save the biggest band for later? Just put them in the order of what you think your best tunes are, starting with the "best"? Think more along the lines of tempo and build up to faster tunes?

I do it by instinct more than anything I guess. But I wonder if I should put more thought in it.
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Here's how I did mine. I thought of it in terms of an old vinyl LP:

Track 1) strong
Track 2) stronger
Track 3) rip heads off
Track 4) change it up a little
Track 5) really throw em a curveball
Track 6) getting back to normal - if this was an LP, it would be the end of side one
Track 7) strong - beginning of side two
Track 8) stronger
Track 9) curveball/weaker song
Track 10) filler/weaker song
Track 11) decent song
Track 12) rip heads off to close the album

I like the way my album flows together, so my formula worked for me. Your results may vary. :drunk:
 
Greg_L said:
Here's how I did mine. I thought of it in terms of an old vinyl LP:

Track 1) strong
Track 2) stronger
Track 3) rip heads off
Track 4) change it up a little
Track 5) really throw em a curveball
Track 6) getting back to normal - if this was an LP, it would be the end of side one
Track 7) strong - beginning of side two
Track 8) stronger
Track 9) curveball/weaker song
Track 10) filler/weaker song
Track 11) decent song
Track 12) rip heads off to close the album

I like the way my album flows together, so my formula worked for me. Your results may vary. :drunk:
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Actually, that's pretty cool. And close to what I've done, especially the first half.:cool:
 
I always thought you might put just about the best song as the first. Unless you feel your 4th best will keep them listening. At least they'll listen to one before they decide the rest is filler.

Interestingly enough, with websites I've used that show stats, the first song almost ALWAYS gets twice the plays as the rest and typically tapers off as you get towards the end. But..maybe that's why it tapers off... it slowly gets worse!
 
mixmkr said:
I always thought you might put just about the best song as the first. !
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Yes, I figure an unknown artist might approach it differently than a band with fans buying their CD. The big name band can afford to get artsy or clever and not worry about people tuning out as quick.
 
RAMI said:
Yes, I figure an unknown artist might approach it differently than a band with fans buying their CD. The big name band can afford to get artsy or clever and not worry about people tuning out as quick.
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The way I see it is if someone buys it, I couldn't care less what they do with it. If they never make it past song 4, then I don't care, as long as they paid. :D
 
In my personal opinion, songs 1, 2, and 3 are pretty crucial. I don't think you have to start with what you feel is your best song. You just have to start with a good representation of what you've got going on. Maybe a more complex mix or something with a bigger arrangement to keep them from turning it off and throwing it out the window. Then with songs 2 and 3 you can hit them with what you feel is your best stuff, even if it might be a simpler arrangement or mix or whatever. Most of my stuff sounds the same though, so I had to be a little more careful with how I sequenced the thing. It could be totally sucky to most people, but I like the way it flows. I get my first test pressing back tomorrow.
 
Clients may ask my opinion, but I would never want to be totally responsible for the song order. For newer bands trying to get a deal I usually suggest stronger material up front. Another consideration is if the songs were recorded at different studios or mixed by different engineers. In this case I usually like to keep the similar sounding tracks together rather than jumping around.

In general though an album should flow like a great book or concert with good tension and release.
 
It should be an artist / band decision. If it can't be decided, what we have done in the past is before mastering I have put together a couple of cds in different orders so they can be put on a listened to in the car or at home to see if the album flows OK.

If we end up with 2 different orders and can't decide, I will ask the mastering engineer's opinion as they are listening to it fresh.

Always put the strongest songs first, I also work on radio and the first song always gets played by presenters who don't have time to listen to the whole album beforehand.

Cheers
Alan.
 
You're going to love this.
I go alphabetical.
Ever since I discovered that they always end up that way in my "New Album" folder I thought "What the Heck? Might as well keep them that way".
No more tedious double checking with a checklist to make sure everything is there and in the right order. I can tell at a glance.
Everything is online now and people are downloading individual tracks more often than whole albums so the song order is less important to me.
Mind you, true albums are a rarity nowadays.
Even back in the day, few LPs would have qualified as albums.
 
I you're making a demo disc, put you strongest/best-hooked song first, and your second-best one second. what you do beyond that is irrelevant because no one that matters will ever hear anything beyond that.

If making a true album, I see no simple way to answer the question, because there are a million different motivations for song order, from energy ebb/flow to storytelling to arranging songs by key/chord progressions, to apparent randomness.

Who decide song order? Who's the producer?

G.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
I you're making a demo disc, put you strongest/best-hooked song first, and your second-best one second. what you do beyond that is irrelevant because no one that matters will ever hear anything beyond that.

If making a true album, I see no simple way to answer the question, because there are a million different motivations for song order, from energy ebb/flow to storytelling to arranging songs by key/chord progressions, to apparent randomness.

Who decide song order? Who's the producer?

G.
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I agree with this on all points
 
Greg_L said:
Here's how I did mine. I thought of it in terms of an old vinyl LP:

Track 1) strong
Track 2) stronger
Track 3) rip heads off
Track 4) change it up a little
Track 5) really throw em a curveball
Track 6) getting back to normal - if this was an LP, it would be the end of side one
Track 7) strong - beginning of side two
Track 8) stronger
Track 9) curveball/weaker song
Track 10) filler/weaker song
Track 11) decent song
Track 12) rip heads off to close the album

I like the way my album flows together, so my formula worked for me. Your results may vary. :drunk:
Click to expand...

Im stealing this from you...
 
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