Mastering a song that runs into the next

YellowDwarf

Dismember
Hi all,

Maybe this is a dumb question but say you have a song that is connected to the next song on the album by wind where the first song fades to wind and the second song fades in.

When a mastering engineer is sent something like this, do they master the pair of songs as one? or do they master them separately and somehow add the wind in later? or ...

Timbo
 
For me the biggest headache is the split point between the two, if they really are separate tracks - like live recordings, they're tricky. If the songs are similar styles, I'd probably treat them as one song, but if they really are two different songs linked with the filler sound, I'd do them separately.
 
Not a dumb question at all....I never thought of that in many years of playing and recording. :listeningmusic:
 
But if we try to do them separately, isn't there a good chance that the listener would hear a change in volume of the wind at the split point?
 
I would master the two as if they were a single track, i.e. make it one track that consists of Song 1 - wind - Song 2.

I would then use a tracker marker to create a gap-less split for CD
 
It might be worth making a DJ friendly version with fades in and out of the songs. It will work a lot nicer as a single or on a playlist as well.
 
Generally you master an entire album as one thing. That way you get all the spacing and levels to work together. Adding markers is essentially an independent step.

[Edit] To clarify, I don't mean you deliver one audio file and have that mastered. You deliver separate files for each track, and for the in between sound. You can send the two songs with the wind sound connecting them in one file as an example, but I would want to do the mastering on the separate files.
 
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I'd echo the suggestion to master the whole album at once. For CD masters the audio is just one long stream anyway which can have track and index markers placed as needed. If you are sending this out to be mastered I would suggest sending a single file with everything at the correct time but also send separate files for each song and the noise just to give the mastering engineer all the options.
 
Tracks are nearly always mastered independently (but typically in the same EDL) and assembly is done after. Otherwise, you can never have the track on its own.
 
Thanks all. So then you would add the wind in to the 2 tracks later?

That would probably be the way to do it. You'd provide two tracks (wav), the wind sample (wav), and probably a guide track (mp3) showing how you want the tracks to flow into each other.

(Side note: I've hired Massive Master for several projects, and I highly endorse him if you don't already have an ME lined up.)
 
Tracks are nearly always mastered independently (but typically in the same EDL) and assembly is done after. Otherwise, you can never have the track on its own
I'm confused here. Does this^^^^^^ contradict this below ?
I would master the two as if they were a single track, i.e. make it one track that consists of Song 1 - wind - Song 2.
I would then use a tracker marker to create a gap-less split for CD
Can two songs that run into each other be mastered as one song but have a marker of some sort put in so that they appear on the CD as 2 songs but no jump between them as they play ?
 
I'm confused here. Does this^^^^^^ contradict this below ?

Can two songs that run into each other be mastered as one song but have a marker of some sort put in so that they appear on the CD as 2 songs but no jump between them as they play ?

When an album is mastered it's exported as a single audio file. If it's exported as Bin/Cue, there will be a second file that specifies where the markers go. If it's exported as a DDP 2.0, there will be several files for markers, track/disc info, checksum etc. in addition to the audio file. Either way you can have continuous audio with markers wherever you want, within some limits. It's not a bunch of separate audio files played in sequence.
 
I'm confused here. Does this^^^^^^ contradict this below ?

Can two songs that run into each other be mastered as one song but have a marker of some sort put in so that they appear on the CD as 2 songs but no jump between them as they play ?

I do mixing and mastering work for someone who specialises in electronic music. His music is seamless, with one track flowing into the next. Even though there are a number of "tracks", it is really just one long, 40 minute track, and the whole thing is mastered as one long track.

In Reaper (and probably possible on other programs as well), I insert markers where the virtual tracks are and render a CD image, the result being a CD without gaps.
 
I'll clear something up also - I'd *process* each tune individually. During the actual creation of the master DDP, they'd be assembled per your specs with the seamless transition. But in the end, you'd have the individual files also.
 
This is the way it's been done since the 70s

Mastering engineers usually want a finished product. You would be asking them too much of a creative decision for someting you hear in your head.

You should do the crossfade by using two stereo tracks in whatever DAW you use, and slide the second track closer or further to the first track until you're satisfied with the timing and fades. Both songs should be at zero level. You control the fades with the volume levels of both tracks. When you like it, on another stereo track slide your wind effect until it's in the right place for you and you can also control its level with volume and fades on either side.

When you are satisfied with the whole thing, then bounce all three tracks to one. Present this to the mastering engineer and tell him or her precisely where you think the second song begins and an insert for the second track will be put there. With crossfades this is tricky business, but there is a good spot where the second track will kick in. Bear in mind you will always hear a bit of the first track and half of the wind when you jump to that second track, it's unavoidable. This combined mix of the the two songs and the wind will also apply if you're cutting vinyl. The mastering engineer will scroll when the first is ending and the second song begins.
 
Mastering engineers usually want a finished product. You would be asking them too much of a creative decision for someting you hear in your head.

I would want the songs and connecting audio as separate files, but with a sample file showing what the client's intent was as far as timing. That's because I may want to process the two songs and the connecting audio differently. Getting it all as one audio file would substantially limit my options.
 
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