A mastering question for someone that knows something....

[Greg_L]

....because I don't.

I've noticed something recently with my "masters" (read: making a mix louder).

I've noticed that my snare loses some definition and crack when pushed through a series of limiters. My pre-master mix seems fine. The snare is tight and cracky and everything seems to sit well....but the mix is way too quiet. When I go to "master" it, the snare's level seems unchanged, but the sound gets fatter. It's not terrible, but I'd like it to keep more of the clean crack it has in the pre-master mix. It seems that the process of mashing it through a series of limiters is bringing out more snare body at the expense of definition. Everything else seems unchanged. Or maybe the drum track reverb is getting enhanced too much? I don't know.

Is this common? I listen to commercial masters and the snare is tight and crisp while the mix is loud. I know I'm not using pro equipment, but surely there's something I'm doing wrong. Any ideas?

 

[philbagg]

Maybe the initial "crack" of the snare is one of the loudest things in the mix, and by pushing it through a limiter and clamping down on the peaks, its taking away some attack. I'm guessing it sounds fatter because the fatness is in the decay of the drum and that's being made louder in comparison to the attack.

Just a guess.

 

[miroslav]

A mastering question for someone that knows something....

Are you asking for FREE mastering info...





I found with my own "mastering" trials that as you push up your levels with some sort of maximizer/compression processing...you also end up screwing up your EQ balance.

I would guess that the main reason that is happening is because the loudness processing is "pulling up" frequencies that otherwise might have been at a lower level...which also makes any "untouched" frequency levels seem quieter.
So then your EQ color changes with the increased level/compression.

That's the main reason I went with a "quieter" master, so I could better preserve the pre-mastered EQ balance. I did 3-4 different "mastering" passes, each time varying the degree of loudness. Then I compared them and found that the loudest ones didn't have the same EQ balance as my pre-masters.

 

[Greg_L]

Maybe the initial "crack" of the snare is one of the loudest things in the mix, and by pushing it through a limiter and clamping down on the peaks, its taking away some attack. I'm guessing it sounds fatter because the fatness is in the decay of the drum and that's being made louder in comparison to the attack.

Just a guess.

Well yeah, obviously. My question is how do you get around that and still have a tight, loud snare?

Are you asking for FREE mastering info...







I found with my own "mastering" trials that as you push up your levels with some sort of maximizer/compression processing...you also end up screwing up your EQ balance.

I would guess that the main reason that is happening is because the loudness processing is "pulling up" frequencies that otherwise might have been at a lower level...which also makes any "untouched" frequency levels seem quieter.
So then your EQ color changes with the increased level/compression.

That's the main reasoin I went with a "quieter" master, so I could better preserve the pre-mastered EQ balance. I did 3-4 different "mastering" passes, each time varyimng the degree of loudness. Then I compared them and found that the loudest ones didn't have the same EQ balance as my pre-masters.

It doesn't seem to be an EQ thing. I can EQ the hell out of it and the problem will still be there. The snare is basically being compressed to death. The limiting is squashing down the snare to make the mix loud. The inital crack is being hammered down and the body is being brought up to match it. There's gotta be some way to keep this from happening - even with modest home recording gear. If I mix the drums quieter, then the guitars and vocals stomp all over everything.

I can live with the fatter snare sound. It's not terrible, but it's not how the pre-master mix sounds....which is the sound I want.....just not loud enough.

 

[philbagg]

Well yeah, obviously. My question is how do you get around that and still have a tight, loud snare?

Well, this is a trick used a lot for dance music w/ the kick, but it could very well work out for you.

Bus everything in your mix (ie. everything that goes to the master L+R) through an aux, except for the snare. Set up a compressor on the aux track, and have it triggered by the snare. But, obviously, do it lightly so that it doesnt sound too pumpy.

Or, if you have a multiband compressor plugin that allows this, this might work better. Find the band of frequencies where the snare cracks most. Set up the multiband on the "Mix" aux and set the barriers over that band of frequencies, and have that sidechained to the snare. So, the rest of the spectrum goes untouched, but that band clamps down, allowing the smack of the snare to cut through even better, so you can turn the snare down and still have it there.

Lower peaks in the mix, less limiter action affecting the snare, more crack

I don't know how successful you will be with this if you try it but it's worth a go.

 

[miroslav]

It doesn't seem to be an EQ thing. I can EQ the hell out of it and the problem will still be there. The snare is basically being compressed to death. The limiting is squashing down the snare to make the mix loud. The inital crack is being hammered down and the body is being brought up to match it. There's gotta be some way to keep this from happening - even with modest home recording gear. If I mix the drums quieter, then the guitars and vocals stomp all over everything.

Have you tried just taking a small section of the song...and only adjusting the snare peaks (manually)...then applying the mastering.
See if that allows the snare to stay balanced but without getting so squashed.

AFA the EQ thing...listen to your overall mix when it's totally nuked for max volume...VS when you just nudge up the level a couple of dB.
I think you WILL hear some EQ difference...but there is a "mid point" where you can get a good amount of slam, without mangling the EQ.

 

[Massive Master]

I can live with the fatter snare sound. It's not terrible, but it's not how the pre-master mix sounds....which is the sound I want.....just not loud enough.

This is another typical example of what "normal" means at any given moment.

Your mixes are plenty loud - Everyone else's are *too* loud.

 

[philbagg]

Or, if you don't have a multiband with sidechain capabilities, you could always bus the "Mix" out to three separate aux's and filter them so you have three separate bands (Bands lower than the "crack band", the "crack band", and the band higher than the crack band), and just apply the compressor (standard comp) to the crack band.

Sorry if it's coming out like gibberish, but just shutup and understand

 

[philbagg]

Sorry. Multiple posts I know but I'm just lashing out ideas here.

What about parallel compression? Master your mix the way you did, and then put the snare track on its own over the track itself. You can add some light compression (not limiting, so you have attack times to play with) to the snare on its own.

So with the snare track solo you have your crack, and then added to the rest of the mix it should come up louder.

Just a guess

Edit: From my experience, parallel compression w/limiters normally induces delay, causing phasing so you might have to nudge your tracks to keep the phase coherent.

 

[Greg_L]

This is another typical example of what "normal" means at any given moment.

Your mixes are plenty loud - Everyone else's are *too* loud.

Okay, so you've heard my mixes? What would you do in my situation? Leave it alone? How do you as an ME get around snare squashing?

I'm not trying to compete with commercial masters. I'm just trying to make better home "masters".

 

[Greg_L]

Sorry. Multiple posts I know but I'm just lashing out ideas here.

What about parallel compression? Master your mix the way you did, and then put the snare track on its own over the track itself. You can add some light compression (not limiting, so you have attack times to play with) to the snare on its own.

So with the snare track solo you have your crack, and then added to the rest of the mix it should come up louder.

Just a guess

Edit: From my experience, parallel compression w/limiters normally induces delay, causing phasing so you might have to nudge your tracks to keep the phase coherent.

Dude, I really genuinely appreciate the input, but I'm not doing all that stuff you mentioned. Half of what you're talking about is way over my head.

 

[Greg_L]

Have you tried just taking a small section of the song...and only adjusting the snare peaks (manually)...then applying the mastering.
See if that allows the snare to stay balanced but without getting so squashed.

I've tried mixing the drums quieter in the pre-master, and it just makes everything else louder.

 

[philbagg]

Dude, I really genuinely appreciate the input, but I'm not doing all that stuff you mentioned. Half of what you're talking about is way over my head.

Something going over Teh Gergs head?

I can try explaining it a little better if you want. I'm sure my previous posts didn't make a whole bunch of sense. But maybe one of the MEs here will tell me I'm talking bollocks. I wonder how they did it on the Metallica album (the black album). That snare is actually too loud IMO, but the rest of the mix is right up there.

 

[miroslav]

I've tried mixing the drums quieter in the pre-master, and it just makes everything else louder.

Yeah...what I meant was to ONLY adjust the highest points of the peaks of just the Snare....leaving the rest of the drums as-is.

 

[Farview]

Try making the snare sound thiner and crackier than you normally would, then when you smash it, it will thicken up to where you want it in the first place.


You might simply be running into the problem of not having the right tool for the job. I have some pretty nice plugins, but when I do it, it never turns out as good as when I send it to Massive.

 

[Greg_L]

Try making the snare sound thiner and crackier than you normally would, then when you smash it, it will thicken up to where you want it in the first place.
.

I've tried that with some quick tests, and it seems to do the trick fairly well. Actually what I did was compress the snare track to a really tight crack, and then once I squashed it, it got to a point closer to what I want to hear. I guess that's the trick. It just seemed like a janky way to get it done.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

This is another typical example of what "normal" means at any given moment.

Your mixes are plenty loud - Everyone else's are *too* loud.

I agree. Your songs can be as loud as any other song if you just turn up your volume knob when you play it back. Problem solved with no harm to the music.

You make great recordings of very entertaining songs. Don't wreck 'em for no reason.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

I'm not trying to compete with commercial masters. I'm just trying to make better home "masters".

How does "harder squashing" equal "better"?

And what does squashing have to do with competition? It's not even loudness. Loudness doesn't even exist until the sound hits an amp and speakers. And then the end user is in total control of the level. So the RMS on the CD has zero correlation to the volume coming out of the speakers in almost all cases.

Competition is who has the better song. Competition is who has the better recording. In rock n' roll, competition is who's recording peels the most paint off of the wall. Raising the RMS through limiting is the opposite of peeling paint off the wall. Raising the real-world volume with an amp and speakers... that peels paint off of the wall.

Competition is certainly not who can make the listener keep the volume knob farthest to the left.



And this has nothing to do with being gentle and delicate with our recordings and not being too rowdy because we're old farts. The loudest music in the world sounds more powerful with a sane RMS. Does this current generation think that we never cruised around in our cars throughout the 80's and 90's disturbing the peace with insane decibels coming from our car stereos? Because I'll tell everybody for certain, we loved to do that. We invented that. Our "quiet" CDs were anything but. I'm sure you can back me up on that, Greg. You must have done that too. You must know first-hand how loud those old CDs are.

If you climb into a kid's car today is it louder than my car was in '93? Hell no. My car in '93 was as loud as my rowdy 16-year-old self could take it. And the knob still had farther to travel. It could have been louder. So the only difference is the kid today has his knob further to the left. He is not kicking any more ass than I did in '93. But the song coming out of his speakers sounds much, much worse, and it is not a single db louder in any real-world measurement.

 

[Greg_L]

Lol. I'm not trying to re-hash the tired old loudness war. I get it, and I agree. My old Black Flag albums are loud regardless of volume. I'm not trying for loudness only. But a current album or demo has to be kind of loud. Especially in today's age of MP3s and CDs in a changer. I'm not trying to push any limits with loudness. I know the feeling though when my MP3 player goes from an old Misfits track at -20 RMS to a current Velvet Revolver track at -6 RMS. It blows my ears out. I'd like to at least split the difference with my own stuff. That's all. I don't think that's asking too much and I'm certainly not trying to promote louder is better.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

Lol. I'm not trying to re-hash the tired old loudness war. I get it, and I agree.

Apparently you don't.

But a current album or demo has to be kind of loud. Especially in today's age of MP3s and CDs in a changer.

No. It does not. Are you hurting the listener more by making them turn a dial, or are you hurting them more by sending them music damaged for all of eternity. Screw their expectations. It's your music, you can do whatever you want. Make it the best it can be, make them turn it up, and they will grow to love it. Especially your stuff. You are a great writer. You are a great recordist/mixer. I love your stuff. Others will too. Not a single person will walk away from work that good because they had to turn a knob.

I'm not trying to push any limits with loudness. I know the feeling though when my MP3 player goes from an old Misfits track at -20 RMS to a current Velvet Revolver track at -6 RMS. It blows my ears out. I'd like to at least split the difference with my own stuff. That's all. I don't think that's asking too much and I'm certainly not trying to promote louder is better.

Don't perpetuate the problem. Even meeting Velvet Revolver half way isn't doing anybody any favors. Why split the difference? There still has to be a user volume adjustment. There is still damage done. Do no damage at all. Not a single bit. Let amps and speakers do their job. Kick some real ass.