When does an external laptop sound-card become a possible "Audio Interface"?

[norskdrum]

External-Laptop-Sound-Cards/DACs & "Audio Interfaces"?

Hello Everyone,
Please forgive this post.

If anyone had the patience? to read my opening long post in Newbie section ,,you will know I am trying to burn the candle at both ends?and have a bit of a conumdrum,which I hope somebody out there can help with?

I have a DELL Studio 32 bit laptop (2008-9 model)this is my nerve centre.
I have had quite a few problems trying to get the balance right,regarding achieving better sound quality for the dell (to play my many music files)..with a new project which is recording my Percussion lessons (CONGAS?BONGOS/TIMBALI/COW BELLS- E>T>C>)

I say recording,but only at a basic level IE ability to record through One big Condeser..or as being suggested to me 2-3 hanging close mikes over the whole set up? The purpose of all this is to allow me to play-back at a reasonable stereo qulity my lessons and progress.

NO!Mixing/Dubbing/Laying Down Tracks..e.t.c

I have read endless reviews saying basically NO sound cards can match an outboard DAC? and that of course brings us back to the question of Audio-Interfaces. I have had a few suggested to me and they are on my short list (presonus/M/audio) and a few I forget the names of now.

It was also suggested instead of looking at Monitor speakers because of:-

NO!Mixing/Dubbing/Laying Down Tracks..e.t.c.

I might look at a small pair of bookshelf/stand speakers I like the look and price of the Mission MX1s which are bi-wireable?(£149) but of course then i`m looking at an amp,cables....e.t.c.


so it is all a bit of a conundrum..but I am sure it will all come together,have being receiving some terrifc help,which is very much appreciated.

so if any of you Computer Music expert have a few simple ideas I would be most grateful

all the best Steve

ps I do not currently own any audio gear although I have owned some quite expensive & unsuitable gear in the past..?long story.

 

[Bobbsy]

I have a horrible feeling we gave you a horrible case of information overload and "analysis paralysis".

Okay, a few things:

"Sound card", "Audio interface" and "External analogue to digital converter" are just different names for the same thing. In the days of desktops, they literally were printed circuit "cards" that plugged into the PCI slots on your computer. Since so many people have laptops now, the same functions come in external boxes so "card" just doesn't sound right, hence most of us calling them "audio interfaces". But they do the same thing as "sound cards". Finally, what's inside the box (or on the card) is a microphone pre-amp and an Analogue to digital converter.

The one thing everyone will agree on...don't try to use the internal sound card on ANY laptop. They're designed for lofi uses like Skype calls, not for proper music recording.

You've got a list of potential audio interfaces. For your needs, most of them will do. I suggest getting something with 2 microphone pre-amps. Also, since you're considering condenser mics, make sure it provides phantom power. Put another way, even if you decide on dynamic mics for now, having phantom gives you options for the future for no extra money. All the brands on your shortlist are reputable and will do the job for you. Just buy the one you can get easily and for the amount of money you want to spend.

Microphones? Well, I'd be in the "two microphones giving stereo coverage" brigade, especially if you're just recording in a normal domestic room without great acoustics. There are various ways you can place the mics but we can talk about that when you've bought them. A single large condenser might work too but with more room noise. Again, you've got a list of mics to look at. I'd go for two small diaphram condensers like SE1A but others might suggest just Shure SM57s. For your needs, either would work. Two mic stands on boom arms and two XLR cables of decent length should finish off that side of things.

Software to do it with? Download the free trial of Reaper and have a go at that. There are lots of people here who can offer advice and guidance and, if you decide to buy, it's only $40 US. Or, even cheaper (i.e. free) you could download Audacity which is freeware. It doesn't do as much and I find it a bit awkward to use...but for two tracks only, the price is certainly right.

And, yeah, since you're not mixing, hifi speakers would be fine for you. Mission make some good ones but there are lots out there to choose from. Go to your local hifi shop and listen. You'll need to get the right cables to go from your Audio interface (probably quarter inch jacks) to the amplifier ins for your speakers (probably phono plugs...what the Americans call RCAs).

Basically everyone on here has their own pets and favourites but the truth is any of the brands suggested will work nicely!

Bob

 

[norskdrum]

Overload of my own Making,Maybe?

Good Day Bob..
Really great of you to spare more time and even more patience on my questions!Must drive folk like you and Paul mad having to deal with folk like me..who have very good intentions...but lacking severely in knowledge

I suppose the reason I moved the conversation over to the Computer recording forum was more to deal with the Audio interface side of things.
IE: striking that balance thing ,seeing what comes out as the best comprimise.

I am on message re the microphones,was looking at a pair of Octavias on THOMAN after they were suggested as good value mics.(made in RUSSIA)
we can slim the mic list down in time.

Two mics over the set up seems favourite at the moment..but things can change and I have a bit of time to make the final choice

With reference to Laptop soundcards? I only just started looking at them...External examples!but then read lots of comments that outboard DACS were better than any Outboard soundcards?

Now this is the bit I was confused by,or put another way i had not twigged..
If I buy an audio interface say the fine looking/Reviewed Presonus or the equally well reviewed M-Audio Pro? if I am correct these will take care of the Mics (including power for said mics I think Dynamic? is the way to go)

two small diaphram condensers like SE1A but others might suggest just Shure SM57s. For your needs, either would work. Two mic stands on boom arms and two XLR cables of decent length should finish off that side of things

.

I was wondering how I place the mics? so it`s two booms, and XLR cables are the cables of choice, any others I should add?

sorry Bob am writing this without checking back on the Mic short list I was given..but I think if i understand correctly the condencers are not suitable for my application? please correct me(anyone if I am wrong)but am not sure as now

two small diaphram condensers like SE1A

or what ever the other type was?

OK ! Laptop> to audio interface-->(mics connected x 2 both with power e.t.c) software on message with that to,you will be pleased to hear will decide later.

Now heres the rub,so to speak...I am assuming the audio interface connects to amp/speakers (is this correct Bob) this is the bit I mostly get confused with..I do not like and really can not wear Headphones..so the speakers (turned off during any recording will have to do the business!

I liked the idea of Hi Fi speakers..then found that was getting a bit costly to even modest Mission speakers MX1s (biwireble)+ Amp+More cables...
does not mean I will not go this way because I thought it was a very good idea and would be good for listening to my music files?

Hope this does not sound to stupido! but does the Audio interface also act as my sound improvement device for the Dell to play my music files or do I require a seperate DAC (again) a real minefield as I found earlier to my cost.

anyway my friend once again a million thanks to you and the other guys for your continued help..it means a great deal to me

all the best for now Steve

 

[Bobbsy]

I am on message re the microphones,was looking at a pair of Octavias on THOMAN after they were suggested as good value mics.(made in RUSSIA)
we can slim the mic list down in time.

Two mics over the set up seems favourite at the moment..but things can change and I have a bit of time to make the final choice

I assume you mean the Okava MK 012-01 pair that Thomann sell. I haven't used them but have heard good things about them from many people I trust. They'd be exactly the sort of thing I was talking about. That particular set gives you lots of flexibility on how to set them up, depending how you arrange your percussion stuff--but we can talk about that side of things later!

Those Oktavas are what is known as a "small diaphragm condenser". Condensers tend to be more sensitive and give more detail in recordings...the small ones like these tend to be a bit better at "transients" (since there's less material to get moving quickly) than large diaphragm mics. So...thumbs up for your application.

With reference to Laptop soundcards? I only just started looking at them...External examples!but then read lots of comments that outboard DACS were better than any Outboard soundcards?

Now this is the bit I was confused by,or put another way i had not twigged..
If I buy an audio interface say the fine looking/Reviewed Presonus or the equally well reviewed M-Audio Pro? if I am correct these will take care of the Mics (including power for said mics I think Dynamic? is the way to go)

Okay, just to repeat "sound card", "audio interface" and "ADC" are basically all different names for the same thing. My comment about lap top sound cards not being good was aimed at the built in sound card (i.e. the mini jack mic input and headphone output your Dell will certainly have.

Both the Presonus and M-Audio brands make good equipment. I assume that from the Presonus range you'd be looking at the Audiobox and, from M-Audio, either the Mobile Pre or the Fast Track Pro. Any of those would do the job for you..

I was wondering how I place the mics? so it`s two booms, and XLR cables are the cables of choice, any others I should add?

Yup. Two mics on booms over your percussion kit, either in front of you or over your shoulders depending on how you lay things out. You can either space them apart (following a rule of the mics being 3 times as far apart as they are from the sound sources) or right beside each other in what's known as an "X-Y" configuration. THIS Wiki article gives some examples and diagrams. I'd experiment with both but probably favour the X-Y for your needs.

sorry Bob am writing this without checking back on the Mic short list I was given..but I think if i understand correctly the condencers are not suitable for my application? please correct me(anyone if I am wrong)but am not sure as now or what ever the other type was?

Nope, condensers, particularly the small diaphragm ones you're considering, are great for your application. I think what I said was that I'd favour a pair of small diaphragm over trying to use a single large diaphragm...but you could make either work. The third type of mic we talked about (there are others as well) was dynamic--which again could work but just isn't my favourite.

OK ! Laptop> to audio interface-->(mics connected x 2 both with power e.t.c) software on message with that to,you will be pleased to hear will decide later.

Now heres the rub,so to speak...I am assuming the audio interface connects to amp/speakers (is this correct Bob) this is the bit I mostly get confused with..I do not like and really can not wear Headphones..so the speakers (turned off during any recording will have to do the business!

I liked the idea of Hi Fi speakers..then found that was getting a bit costly to even modest Mission speakers MX1s (biwireble)+ Amp+More cables...
does not mean I will not go this way because I thought it was a very good idea and would be good for listening to my music files?

Hope this does not sound to stupido! but does the Audio interface also act as my sound improvement device for the Dell to play my music files or do I require a seperate DAC (again) a real minefield as I found earlier to my cost.

Yes, once you have things set up you can record without headphones and with the speakers turned down.

Yes, the same audio interface will work great just for listening to music. The big part of the improvement is on the recording side but even simple playback will be better than with the inbuilt headphone jack output.

More basic hifi speakers with a single amp would likely be fine for you if a bi-amped solution is too expensive. My 35 year old monitor speakers also get used for my general listening use and were built long before bi-amping became fashionable!

On the other hand, some of the small speakers sold as "studio monitors" might be cheaper than real audiophile stuff. You might look at things like Tannoy "Reveal" speakers or even Behringer "Truth". If you get powered speakers, it could save you buying a separate amp but either scheme can work.

anyway my friend once again a million thanks to you and the other guys for your continued help..it means a great deal to me

all the best for now Steve

No problem. As it is now 5:30 PM here in Aus, I intend to follow you in the direction of a drink very soon!

Bob

 

[norskdrum]

Have a drink for Me!

Hi Bob...
That was one quick reply,many thanks the time here is 10:30 a.m. so no drinking in fact I am not allowed to drinkdue to medication.) which part of Oz are you in and I can add you to my world clock!I am just drunk with excitement and enthusiasm!

Great reply again,feel I am moving forward..

.I assume you mean the Okava MK 012-01 pair that Thomann sell.

yep those are the ones but there are others I know.

M-Audio brands make good equipment. I assume that from the Presonus range you'd be looking at the Audiobox and, from M-Audio, either the Mobile Pre or the Fast Track Pro.

M-AUDIO FAST TRACK PRO seems the lead contender? unless you or anyone else makes a case for one of the others over this one?at least Bob the field is narrowing

Thanks very much for the mic placement & link advice much appreciated as you say,we can look at all that later,,and it will be some time before all this comes together.

Yes, once you have things set up you can record without headphones and with the speakers turned down.

Yes, the same audio interface will work great just for listening to music. The big part of the improvement is on the recording side but even simple playback will be better than with the inbuilt headphone jack output.

Both excellent news really chuffed by that aspect.

More basic hifi speakers with a single amp would likely be fine for you if a bi-amped solution is too expensive. My 35 year old monitor speakers also get used for my general listening use and were built long before bi-amping became fashionable!

On the other hand, some of the small speakers sold as "studio monitors" might be cheaper than real audiophile stuff. You might look at things like Tannoy "Reveal" speakers or even Behringer "Truth". If you get powered speakers, it could save you buying a separate amp but either scheme can work.

Now this is the bit,that brings a sick feeling to the pit of my stomach,and with very good reason,which I will not go in to on a open forum..just say previously I was burnt more than once(financially),by my over enthusiasm, and being sold inappropriate audio gear,for my modest needs(mostly my fault for being so stupid.)

anyway back to this now...If there are a pair of well thought of smallSpeakers/Motitors

might look at things like Tannoy "Reveal" speakers or even Behringer "Truth". If you get powered speakers, it could save you buying a separate amp but either scheme can work.

I would in many ways prefer active/powered speakers I did own a pair of Audioengine A5s (bamboo) all sold along with everything else.
They never quite did it for me they lacked something? but they are well regarded that`s for sure.

So We can look at the Tannoys + any similar speakers/monitors[Good base neutral sounding Good balance will do me fine]

Ok thatt is enough of me rambling on

all the very best for now cheers Steve