tuning VST drums? (Steven Slate)

GuitardedMark

New member
Hey all!

I'm just about to pick up steven slate drums (SSD) and I was wondering if I need to tune them at all before i record. My guitar is tuned to B. Do drums get tuned to the other instruments or just to themselves?
 
Short answer: don't worry about it! Just pretend like they are automagically self-tuning.

Longer answer: in a sense there are two aspects to drum tuning. The first aspect, to do with careful, even tensioning of the skins and control of resonance, is only directly relevant to setting up real acoustic drums.

The second aspect is the pitch interval between the drums. A drum would have to have a very strong and specific resonance to sound conspicuously in or out of key with a band, but as you play round the kit from tom to tom they can present a more or less pleasing sequence of pitches, timbres and tonalities. A digital drum set will have anticipated this and allowed for it, but you may start to develop your own opinions and preferences. The most common pitch suggestion is 4th intervals between the toms. Of course, most drum lines are founded on kick, snare and h-hat. Kicks and hats have huge ranges of tonality but I've never wanted to address their specific pitch. A 'ringy' resonant snare can have quite a strong pitch to it, but if the pitch was creating ugliness I'd tend to use a less pitch-specific snare rather than tune the snare. I expect someone can come up with a good argument in favour of the opposite approach!

Remember: drums are set up and operated by drummers: how complicated can it be? :cool:
 
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This was a good answer!
Indeed.

As I do electronic music, all my "drums" are samples, sometimes even comprising of several layers of different samples which then comprise a single drum sound such as a kick or a snare.

There have been times where I've tuned the drums to be sympathetic to the key the music was in. At other times, I have purposefully used a snare that has been way off key to make things sound more tense and nervous.

However, for acoustic drums, I'd probably go for whatever sounds good on the particular drum.
 
Hey all!

I'm just about to pick up steven slate drums (SSD) and I was wondering if I need to tune them at all before i record. My guitar is tuned to B. Do drums get tuned to the other instruments or just to themselves?

You don't "tune" drums like you would a piano (or a fish).

Buddy Rich said "you don't tune drums, you tension them".

You just try and get a sound that is characteristic of the instrument.

As far as the samples, just pick a pitch that sounds good with the rest of the set and the song. With the SSD drums I got I thought the kick had too much click so I used low pass filter on it, and messed with close/room mics for the song. The way they come from the factory is pretty good.
 
The main reason im asking is for the kick drum. When I do djent style palm mutes or even chugging it sounds muddy. I want the kick drum to be tuned in sync with my open low b palm mutes. When I listen to pro recordings of good metal, they always match. The kick and the open low string on the guitar sync perfectly.
 
The main reason im asking is for the kick drum. When I do djent style palm mutes or even chugging it sounds muddy. I want the kick drum to be tuned in sync with my open low b palm mutes. When I listen to pro recordings of good metal, they always match. The kick and the open low string on the guitar sync perfectly.

What, in terms of timbre? I'm not sure how this could be done from purely a 'frequency' standpoint. It sounds like you're talking about EQ, or the space occupied by a sound in the overall sonic spectrum. Though I imagine that an open E string tuned way down to B will start to sound muddy a long time before a properly tuned kick drum will.
 
It's great when a rhythm section 'lock'. Bass and drums, or drums and rhythm guitar (especially if detuned) can sound like a single sinuous mighty beast. The word you use, 'sync', is a good one - it's often down to sophisticated arrangement and great performance with an interplay of timing and dynamics. The thing is, whilst 'pitch' must have some impact, I don't feel myself that it's one of the crucial elements in locking a kick drum into most rock/metal mixes.

One intangible aspect of this is that the mighty rhythm section of a top tier professional band really does involves a sinuous flesh-and-blood interplay. Those guys work long and hard together developing phrasing and learning each others timing and nuances, leaning into the beat here, back from the beat there, sometimes stressing the same beats, sometimes counterpointing each other. It's a tough job to program a drum line with that degree of depth and nuance. And if you manage to put together such an 'organic' track, it's a very tough job indeed to complement all that drama and detail effectively when overdubbing a rhythm guitar line by yourself in an empty room. Which is why a hell of a lot of bands record their rhythm section as live as possible, ideally with good line-of-sight between the players.

In terms of raw sound, stuff you might try, if you haven't already, is a kick sound with plenty of high-end snap to it, and/or a 'gull-wing' EQ on the guitar to maximize both the punch and the presence. I hope someone has some more practical advice than I'm offering! Let us know how you get on...
 
What, in terms of timbre? I'm not sure how this could be done from purely a 'frequency' standpoint. It sounds like you're talking about EQ, or the space occupied by a sound in the overall sonic spectrum. Though I imagine that an open E string tuned way down to B will start to sound muddy a long time before a properly tuned kick drum will.

Not true. I boost a lot of mids and I'm easy on the lows. I prefer a very tight sounding guitar and I've done a lot of work get it tight (NO OD PEDALS!!!!!)

I'm speaking about pitch only. Bands like Chimaira do a lot of open palm muting thats is snyced with the kick drum. I can always tell when the kick is not tuned to the open low e string and there is a lot of chugging and palm muting. Metallica is a great example of this (burn in hell Lars!).
 
I feel very comfortable with the process of EQ, compression timing, dynamics, and mixing. My main question is whether you can tune the steven slate drums, primarily the kick.
 
I'm sure there must be a way to pitch adjust if only via MIDI, but I'm puzzled by this. Of course you can be as refined as you wish in a studio situation and reset the drums for every track. But picture, say, Rammstein (or whoever pops into your mind) playing live. The vocals, bass, guitars and synths can place successive songs in any key. Heck, they could change key mid-song. What's the drummer to do at a key change - swap kick drums kinda like what a harmonica player in a blues band does?

I don't mean to dis' your approach. There are people who have a much better musical ear than I do, and they notice stuff I overlook. Maybe an example of that is my never having thought to ask a drummer what key he was playing in!
 
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Not true. I boost a lot of mids and I'm easy on the lows. I prefer a very tight sounding guitar and I've done a lot of work get it tight (NO OD PEDALS!!!!!)

Fair enough. I can only imagine how de-tuning a non-baritone guitar by 3 full tones would sound as I have never felt the need to do it. I have a bass. Although from your MySpace samples, you should have no worries mixing a kick to stand out amongst those guitar tones, a bit of EQ to bring out the attack and you'll be fine.

I'm speaking about pitch only. Bands like Chimaira do a lot of open palm muting thats is snyced with the kick drum. I can always tell when the kick is not tuned to the open low e string and there is a lot of chugging and palm muting. Metallica is a great example of this (burn in hell Lars!).

Your standard western kit isn't tuned to a pitch. Never. Never ever. Pitched percussion does exist, as orchestral timpani for instance, but I can guarantee you it's not something that Chimaira do. No drummer, engineer or producer will tune a kick drum so that it's fundamental frequency matches that of a guitar, whether it's tuned to concert pitch or a dropped tuning. What you are most-likely identifying with is the particular degree of tensioning employed when fitting the skin to the tensioning rods of the kick drum. This shouldn't be thought of as tuning, though invariably an increase in tension will produce a higher pitch and vice-versa. The sound of a kick drum may be seen to compliment that of a guitar, though this is invariably the product of a well-conceived mix, not the matching of frequencies.

In answer to your sampling question, as a western kit is not a pitched instrument, it is highly unlikely that you will be able to specify a particular pitch when triggering a sample. You may - depending on the software and VSTi in question - be able to alter the tone of a sample, though as before, this is akin to simply increasing or decreasing the tension of a drum skin.
 
Fair enough. I can only imagine how de-tuning a non-baritone guitar by 3 full tones would sound as I have never felt the need to do it. I have a bass. Although from your MySpace samples, you should have no worries mixing a kick to stand out amongst those guitar tones, a bit of EQ to bring out the attack and you'll be fine.



Your standard western kit isn't tuned to a pitch. Never. Never ever. Pitched percussion does exist, as orchestral timpani for instance, but I can guarantee you it's not something that Chimaira do. No drummer, engineer or producer will tune a kick drum so that it's fundamental frequency matches that of a guitar, whether it's tuned to concert pitch or a dropped tuning. What you are most-likely identifying with is the particular degree of tensioning employed when fitting the skin to the tensioning rods of the kick drum. This shouldn't be thought of as tuning, though invariably an increase in tension will produce a higher pitch and vice-versa. The sound of a kick drum may be seen to compliment that of a guitar, though this is invariably the product of a well-conceived mix, not the matching of frequencies.

In answer to your sampling question, as a western kit is not a pitched instrument, it is highly unlikely that you will be able to specify a particular pitch when triggering a sample. You may - depending on the software and VSTi in question - be able to alter the tone of a sample, though as before, this is akin to simply increasing or decreasing the tension of a drum skin.

I also have a bass. I still like the sound of my guitar downtuned...

Maybe drummers dont put a tuner up to their drums or anything, but listen to the difference in justice for all or really any metallica album before black album and listen to how bad the "timbre" of the kick syncs with the open string palm mutes. What I'm talking about only applies to palm mutes. For some reason I have a feeling no one that has replied listens to metal and as ANY idea what I'm talking about. If you tighten the head on the drum, the pitch goes up. Its as simple as that no? All I'm talking about is getting the pitch of the kick to sit well with an open B djent palm mute or chugging.

In cubase lm-07 drums there is a pitch option. I noticed if i lower the pitch by the smallest increment possible (which actually lowers it quite a bit) it sits in the mix SO MUCH BETTER. To me it sounds like the difference between 2 guitars that are in tune and 2 that arent. Its just tight when everything is "in tune".

Good examples of what I'm talking about are Arch Enemy, Chimaira especially the album The Infection, and Agony Scene (only the album darkest red).
 
For some reason I have a feeling no one that has replied listens to metal and as ANY idea what I'm talking about. If you tighten the head on the drum, the pitch goes up. Its as simple as that no? All I'm talking about is getting the pitch of the kick to sit well with an open B djent palm mute or chugging.

I'm not a huge metal fan, though I, like most people here, enjoy mixing as a craft.

I noticed if i lower the pitch by the smallest increment possible (which actually lowers it quite a bit) it sits in the mix SO MUCH BETTER.

Seems like you've answered your own question - it comes down to how a drum sounds in the mix. If you like how it sounds, then go for it.

To me it sounds like the difference between 2 guitars that are in tune and 2 that arent. Its just tight when everything is "in tune".

I think that might be taking it a bit too far.
 
Well I'm sure there are gaps in my musical and cultural education, and I'm always glad to learn more when I get the opportunity to spend time with people who have more experience than I...

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I've always very much liked that palm muting technique in metal. I'm of the view that a first step towards the modern sound was Tony Iommi's chord work on the 'Sabotage' album. Brian Tatler has said publically that he was inspired by that sound when he wrote the riff to 'Am I Evil' for Diamond Head, which was the next step forward. And of course Metallica are very much on record as taking the first Diamond Head album as one of their greatest early inspirations, before they in turn helped make the sound a fundamental part of the metal vocabulary. The sound went to to develop more, for example with the muting of fuller chords, greater use of substantial detuning (another Iommi innovation) and of 7-string guitars. All of which is just to put forward a suggestion that I do have at least some idea of what you're talking about, even though it's much more a part of your creative life these days than it is of mine!
 
For some reason I have a feeling no one that has replied listens to metal and as ANY idea what I'm talking about.

I'm a total metal head, and I don't know a whole lot about tuning drums cuz I use all vdrums, midi, and vsti's.. However, I'm pretty sure when ppl talk about 'tuning drums', it doesn't mean the same thing as 'tuning' means to a guitarist - they're talking about tensions, not pitches. Getting the drum sound to decay just right, having the right drumhead head, even tension on all the lugs, whatever. Drum tones. Not drum pitches.

I believe what you think is drums pitched specifically for a song key is really just the difference in the drums themselves, the mics, mic placement, and eq and general mixing.

And comparing metal from the 80's to modern heavy duty shit like Chimaira and Arch Enemy isn't really fair anyway. Metallica tuned to E for everything they ever recorded up to &Justice.... The modern metal is B and C and even lower.... The sound they were after back then isn't the same as what they're after now. Instruments, style, mixing, everything has evolved. I wouldn't be suprised if bass drums were bigger than they were back then to help achieve deeper lower kick sounds.
 
@suprstar,

Dude, of course you're right that the scene has evolved a hell of a lot, and the more recent it is the more ignorant I am. I was just pointing to my take on where the sound has it's roots and that some of my bones do got metal in them!

My beef with the likes of Chimaira is the vocal style, but I'm an old guy and set in my ways - Rammstein is as close as I get to metal on a regular basis these days - (their live show'll singe your eyebrows off, both metaphorically and literally. As well as, er... your earbrows...).

But while I'm telling ol' time stories from the rockin' chair - John Bonham used a 26" x 14" kick drum, and Tony Iommi tuned down to C# for Sabbath's 1971 'Masters of Reality' album...

R
 
Seems like you've answered your own question - it comes down to how a drum sounds in the mix. If you like how it sounds, then go for it.QUOTE]

Well actually my original question is whether I can "tune" or "tighten" the heads on the steven slate drums.
 
I'm a total metal head, and I don't know a whole lot about tuning drums cuz I use all vdrums, midi, and vsti's.. However, I'm pretty sure when ppl talk about 'tuning drums', it doesn't mean the same thing as 'tuning' means to a guitarist - they're talking about tensions, not pitches. Getting the drum sound to decay just right, having the right drumhead head, even tension on all the lugs, whatever. Drum tones. Not drum pitches.

I believe what you think is drums pitched specifically for a song key is really just the difference in the drums themselves, the mics, mic placement, and eq and general mixing.

If you tighten a drum head it raises the pitch right? How would that not be tuning? Funny enough, I've actually read a lot about this and I'm very suprised this is being contested. My only real question is whether you can "tune" steven slate VST drums by "tightening" the heads.
 
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