Replacing Soundcraft EPM 12 with outbox mic preamps

T

trumpeter

New member
Hello all,

First post on this forum, so hoping I'm in the right place for these questions.

I currently use an Echo Audiofire 12 and a Soundcraft EPM 12 with Cubase. I'm pretty much satisfied about my Echo, but am trying to figure out what would be the best way to expand this setup. I will be needing more than 12 inputs (recorded individualy) and would really like to be able to use all the outputs of my current Echo for monitor-mixes (main mix, control room headphones, two or more stereo headphone monitor mixes).

So, what I was thinking is that I have two options:
- Buy a big-ass analogue mixer with at least 16 mic pre's/preferrably 24
- Ditch the mixer and buy some mic preamps with maybe different characteristics

I would like the setup where I don't have to use a pick-up truck to move my gear to studio's for recordings, so a large mixing board wouldn't be my first choice. However, I don't want to lose (too much) on preamp quality by replacing the Soundcraft's beloved GB30's with for example a Behringere ADA8000 where the input signal always gets converted before you can get it to the outputs (to my Echo). So, I don't need an audio interface, but maybe an 8-channel preamp for any purpose recording and then expand the setup with additional, higher grade, individual preamps for trumpet, voice, guitar and so on.

Please let me know what your thoughts are on this and if for example a Presonus Digimax D8 would be a reduction in sound quality in comparison to the Soundcraft. Not looking for any Audient ASP 008'ish priced preamps, they're two to three times more expensive than what I would like to spend on an eight-channel preamp.

Kind regards
 
Today I received an SM Pro Audio Q-Pre 4-channel mic preamp. I've tried some recording to try to compare it to the sound recorded thru my Soundcraft EPM 12 (using the inserts). The headphone I used is a Sennheiser HD 280 Pro.

To be honest I don't think I can find much difference between the sound of the different recordings. I'll try another shootout hopefullly within a week or so and post the clean results. I have the feeling the Q-Pre is slightly clearer, or a little less 'dark' but it doesn't make much of a difference to my ears.

Now thinking of adding another SM Pro Audio PR8E or EP84. Both have XLR/TRS inputs but the EP84 has some additionals which might be interesting. For some colourization (?) I might add some tube pre's.

Still, any thoughts are welcome! Please write.
 
You could buy a second Audiofire12 and daisy-chain it to your existing AF12. You might need to do something with the word clocks to ensure synchronization, but the procedure is explained in the manual.

This would give you 24 channels, and you can populate the inputs as desired.

For colour, you may be better off looking for equipment with input and/or output transformers. Tubes themselves may or may not impart a sonic signature.

The SM Pro PR8R is a budget priced pre-amp. It makes no pretense to being high-end, and tends to get overlooked. However, it is reasonably well made, is quiet, and works as advertised. It falls into the neutral sounding category. Inside you find a discrete Class-A transistor front-end, through-hole components, and a linear power supply, which makes the PR8E a good platform for modifying (which I have done).

If you need to move gear around, you might be able to use a portable rack which will facilitate transportation and simplify set-up.

Hope this helps.

Paul
 
Hello Paul,

Thanks for your input! I like the Echo Audiofire 12 very much, so I will probably be purchasing a second one just before I have the next recording session where I'ld need more then twelve inputs.

You do support the idea of ditching the mixer and using seperate preamps instead? I think of it as less throwing money away when you eventually need more preamps and output routing options.

Any thoughts on a good next step? I like the idea of having one or more portable racks to put my gear in.
 
I think you could move away from the console. You can definitely do your mixing in the DAW, and take some potentially superfluous electronics out of the loop by removing the console. The Audiofire12 is great because it just does AD and DA, without preamps, so you can tailor inputs as you want them.

There is, of course, endless discussion about In The Box (ITB) Vs Out of The Box (OTB) mixing. I don't bother arguing one way or the other, since everyone has their own preference. The "right" approach is the one that suits your budget, physical space, and most importantly, your ears.

So to preamps, have you defined a budget? And what are you recording?

A couple of good coloured preamps around the $500 mark are the Warm Audio WA12 and the GAP Pre-73. The SM Pro Audio PR8e will provide 8 simple and clean channels in one box. If you have electronic construction experience, there are many excellent kits available as well - JLM Audio, Seventh Circle, Five Fish, to name but a handful. Some of the preamps have DI, so that gives you another option for tone/colour for instruments.

If you are getting the Audiofire12 for your next session, I would respectfully suggest that you do so well ahead of time so you can test the set-up and get any problems resolved. You don't want to doing that on the day!

Good luck. Paul
 
Hi Paul,

I've looked in to the GAP Pre-73's. They do get some great reviews. I think I'll take a chance on that one. But first get my priorities straight. So to answer your questions:
I haven't defined a budget, because I don't like to step away from a far better mic/pre just because it's just a bit more expensive then what I had in mind. However I should say that anything over € 500,- has to make so much of a difference in comparison to say a mic of € 270,- that I would have to have the idea that spending € 270 on the cheaper mic would be throwing away money. Maybe just to state a budget, anywhere between € 150,- and € 300,- per item. Main focus now is the trumpet.

I will be buying the SM Pro Audio PR8E for drum micing and to have my twelve inputs available when needed. Combined with the Q-Pre it gives me twelve preamps which I can use for pop/rock bands. Other then that I'm now looking for a decent (ribbon?) mic and preamp for trumpet. Later on I can continue looking for some microphones and/or preamps for guitar, but as I understand you can get a very good result using an SM57 on guitar.

Would a combination of the Pre-73 and the GAP R1 MKII get me a warm, but detailed sound? Any thoughts on the MXL R144? sE Electronics X1R?
 
The Pre-73 can be retro-fitted with Carnhill input and output transformers. (Carnhill transformers are generally considered to be the present-day transformers which most closely match those used in earlier Neve products.) This modification is generally hailed as a Good Thing. Furthermore, the sound can be further modified by replacing key coupling capacitors with tantalums. This increases the overall "Neve-ishness" of the Pre-73. I am not in any way suggesting that you should do this, but the options are there if you or a acquaintance have suitable tech skills.

For a ribbon, may I steer you to DIY Audio Components to check out the RM-5 ribbon mic. At €295 it seems to fall within budget? I now have two of these mics (which were available for a limited time in kit form), and they sound really good. Full, detailed but without hyped highs. They look great as well!

If you haven't used ribbon mics before, be aware that they can be delicate. They susceptible to damage from puffs of air - close mic'd voices for one, and possibly the bell of wind/brass instruments. A pop filter will protect the mic. Despite this, ribbons can handle loud SPL.

I think that a good ribbon will definitely help with a warm detailed sound, and I don't think you'll be disappointed with the GAP products. Experiment with a ribbon through both clean and coloured pre-amps and find out which sounds best to your ears.

Some ribbon mics need more amplification than, say, a condenser mic. The RM-5 produces a pretty healthy voltage, however, due to the magnets and foil that are used, coupled with the 1:37 transformer. With trumpet, I don't think you'll have any issues.

Paul
 
Hi Paul,

I'm sorry no to have replied earlier. I have been looking at the RM-5 and it really looks amazing. Still trying to free up some funds for 'the magic mic' but I'll get there and I really like this RM-5.

Will let you know when I've made the decision.

Kind regards
 
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