Low synth output

arcticranger

New member
I'm running Reaper with this setup: 7 synths go into a Mackie mixer and I use the Alt 3/4 button to send one synth channel at a time to my Focusrite interface.

My mono synths go into the mixer mic /line channels which have gain knobs so I can get a solid signal centering on 0 on my levels meter. My stereo synths go into the stereo channels which have no gain knob and even at max volume most of them don't hit 0db (I'm using the pre-fader switch to gauge input signal). My Yamaha Motif barely reaches -7db.

Any ideas on bumping up these weak signals or a better strategy for recording multiple hardware synths? Mackie support said I probably needed preamps for these synths.
 
A mixer with more inout channels, or run the inputs through a patch bay (yes I know it's not recommended for mic level signals by some, but always worked fine for me). -7db isn't too low if the noise is low - just boost it in the computer and see how it responds.
 
Can you use the 'Main' outs to the Focusrite and switch all the synths you don't want onto the 3/4 Aux bus and leave the one you do want on the Main bus. The main mix control out might be able to push out a bit more in level(?) Use balanced cables on the main outs to the Focusrite as those will up the level versus using TS type cables. You didn't mention which Mackie mixer you had, so I don't know if the 1/4" main outs are balanced or not or if the mixer has XLR main outs which would be balanced. If only the XLR outs are balanced use an XLR to 1/4" TRS cables to the Focusrite.
 
it's a 1202 VLZ3 so the main outs and Alt 3/4's are balanced. I can get plenty of signal to the audio interface with either output, I am concerned here with weak signals coming into the mixer which might introduce noise.
 
Can you use the 'Main' outs to the Focusrite and switch all the synths you don't want onto the 3/4 Aux bus and leave the one you do want on the Main bus. The main mix control out might be able to push out a bit more in level(?) Use balanced cables on the main outs to the Focusrite as those will up the level versus using TS type cables. You didn't mention which Mackie mixer you had, so I don't know if the 1/4" main outs are balanced or not or if the mixer has XLR main outs which would be balanced. If only the XLR outs are balanced use an XLR to 1/4" TRS cables to the Focusrite.

oops I think I needed to quote to respond directly to you. So...

it's a 1202 VLZ3 so the main outs and Alt 3/4's are balanced. I can get plenty of signal to the audio interface with either output, I am concerned here with weak signals coming into the mixer which might introduce noise.
 
Alt 3/4 outs are kinda, sorta balanced (electronically impedance balanced with a resistor), but not true balanced like the XLR outs which can give 6dB more level that the 1/4" outs.
 

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oops I think I needed to quote to respond directly to you. So...

it's a 1202 VLZ3 so the main outs and Alt 3/4's are balanced. I can get plenty of signal to the audio interface with either output, I am concerned here with weak signals coming into the mixer which might introduce noise.

I see what you're saying (I think). Have you been able to notice/hear any noise in the recordings, even if boosted as Rob suggested?
 
I see what you're saying (I think). Have you been able to notice/hear any noise in the recordings, even if boosted as Rob suggested?

I'm only doing mixer input tests right now not recording. I'm testing a Motif flute voice into a stereo channel and it's not even hitting -20db. That said I don't hear much noise over headphones.

I'm reading some other threads about adding gain via voice and global setting for this synth. But I'm surprised that line level channels are getting such weak signals from line output synths.
 
Grrr! As with many synth mnfctrs Yamaha do not give a figure for output voltage. They do say however the L/R jacks deliver "line levels" which I would take to mean around 0dBu but even at -10dBV the stereo line inputs of a mixer should deliver a good signal. The manual also shows the synth driving active monitors which all have roughly line level sensitivity or better.

Then I found a Sound on Sound review of the Motif, mostly glowing and NO mention of weedy outs!

Bottom line: A setting in the synth has cranked down the levels somehow?

Dave.
 
Bottom line: A setting in the synth has cranked down the levels somehow?

That would be my guess as well.

I have not known any keyboard or synth to have line level outputs that do not deliver a decent level. The mac support that said preamps were needed was, in my view, clutching at straws.

My first action would be to initialise the synth to its factory settings to eliminate an unwanted setting that might be causing the problem
 
These are line level synth inputs not mic.

Synth outputs are more like "instrument" level, perhaps -20dBV. The line inputs are set up for +4dBu. You'd be better off connecting them to inputs with higher sensitivity/more gain.

[Edit] I wrote this before reading the last two posts. They could be right, but -10dBV is still a bit weak.

Side note, although most mixers make 0dBVU = +4dBu, most Mackies make 0dBVU = 0dBu.
 
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Synth outputs are more like "instrument" level, perhaps -20dBV. The line inputs are set up for +4dBu. You'd be better off connecting them to inputs with higher sensitivity/more gain.

[Edit] I wrote this before reading the last two posts. They could be right, but -10dBV is still a bit weak.

Side note, although most mixers make 0dBVU = +4dBu, most Mackies make 0dBVU = 0dBu.

Hmm? Yet ANOTHER situation where a pretty bog standard DMM would tell all. Poke it and play A 440.

Dave.
 
I suppose the real test is to compare it to another synth of some kind and see which is louder? Most of my synths, and I've got quite a lot are NOT line level, but the lower instrument level, designed to be able to go into stage amps and combos used by the guitar folk. I picked a Roland keys combo and the levels it is expecting are NOT line level
SPECIFICATIONSRated Power Output320 W (160 W + 160 W)Nominal Input Level (1 kHz)CH1 (BALANCED, L/MONO, R): -50-- -20 dBu
CH2 (L/MONO, R): -20 dBu
CH3 (L/MONO, R): -20 dBu
CH4 (L/MONO, R): -20 dBu
AUX IN/MONITOR IN (AUX 1、AUX 2、AUX 3): -10 dBu
STEREO LINK (IN): 0 dBu
 
I've got a Behringer X1204 which is kind of close to the Mackie. Plugged in a Yamaha keyboard set at full volume into the stereo ins on the Behry and got similar levels that articranger is describing. The normal line inputs had plenty of gain available and I could easily max out the VU meters. From the Mackie user manual there is a note that the 5-12 stereo ins are a wee bit lower in gain than the line counterparts, like 40dB which likely would account for the levels he's getting. On the Behry I was able to get the level up to a reasonable level by maxing the channel fader level.
The Mackie manual shows the stereo ins have a range of -10dBv to +4bBu.
 

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Ooooo-k. So it seems most synths run about neg 20dBu/V (matters little which, both pretty feeble!)

A thought occurs that this might be "historical"? The very first stage pianos and organs were fed into basically guitar amplifiers which had sheds of gain. As time went on of course we had "acoustic" amplifiers and "keyboard" amps developed but the sensitivities stayed much the same?

So, who makes a nice wee box with up to 20dB of clean gain and two channels run from batteries, spook juice or indeed a USB port?

Dave.
 
I don't think the OP hasn't established as of yet, that low gain of channels 5-12 are introducing any noise, which was his original concern. Where he'll be recording the synths one by one normally and as long as no noise shows in the recording, just bump up the gain on the interface to compensate for channels 5-12 when using those and see how that works. I believe he may have been anticipating a problem that may prove to be a non-problem :)
 
The Ebtech line level shifters can do -10 to +4 using transformers. There are 2 channel and 8 channel versions. They're not cheap, and they're made for consumer/pro conversion, not instrument to line level.
 
Simpler to just slap them into a DI box and use the mic inputs? When I face something a bit lower than usual, like one of my guitars that has trouble plugged into the instrument input of my interface, I just add a compressor in Cubase, with no compression dialled in, enable it and then turn off the auto makeup gain, and turn the knob - it works rather well and I can't detect any noise issues as long as I don't start dropping the guitar volume even further. I would try something like this before spending money.
 
Simpler to just slap them into a DI box and use the mic inputs? When I face something a bit lower than usual, like one of my guitars that has trouble plugged into the instrument input of my interface, I just add a compressor in Cubase, with no compression dialled in, enable it and then turn off the auto makeup gain, and turn the knob - it works rather well and I can't detect any noise issues as long as I don't start dropping the guitar volume even further. I would try something like this before spending money.

The very chap? Dual Channel Micro DI Box

Dave.
 
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