loss of the sound directly versus sound card.

H

Hello5432§

New member
I would like to know the following.
I have a digital piano/keyboard with a nice piano sound. I also have studio monitors with a nice sound. If I plug my piano/keyboard directly into my studio monitors the piano sound is okay.
If I plug my piano and studio monitors into my external sound card of my computer (without daw), there is a loss of the sound of the piano. This sound isn't as nice, as when I plug my piano directly into the monitors.
How is this possible, what/where is the problem/loss of the sound?
Thanx
 
Speaker outputs aren't meant to be connected to sound card inputs. Connect the keyboard line out to the your sound card line input. Sound card's output should go to your amp/speaker setup.
 
Thank you for your reply, but of course my monitors are connected to the output of the soundcard and the piano to the inputs of the sound card. I don't know what happens if I connect my monitors to the input of the soundcard... a terrible noise I guess :)
 
Hello5432§ said:
Thank you for your reply, but of course my monitors are connected to the output of the soundcard and the piano to the inputs of the sound card. I don't know what happens if I connect my monitors to the input of the soundcard... a terrible noise I guess :)
Click to expand...

Your original post was very unclear as to your signal chain. More info is needed. For a start, what level is the output of the keyboard? Is it mono, stereo or both? Whose sound card are you using and what inputs/input levels does it have? What outputs are available on your sound card? Are you using adapters to connect anything?
 
You said you p-lug the piano into the speakers, so we assumed you meant the loudspeaker output, it the speakers, but now I suspect you have powered monitors, so it's the line level out you are talking about?

First step - what interface have you got. We know most of them so can then guide you through likely things. I suspect that your piano probably doesn't have that nice an output - to be honest, few do. Yamaha Clavinovas sound quite nice through their speaker systems, but often sound thin and weak when connected to other kit.
 
If you are plugging left and right line-level output into the input of active speakers, you will get a good clear sound with stereo separation.

If you go via the interface, it is highly likely that, even if you plug into two inputs on the interface, you are actually only getting a mono sound from the two speakers, unless there is a facility on the interface topan the inputs to left or right. Most interfaces don't have this, though it can often be done with software.
 
gecko zzed said:
If you are plugging left and right line-level output into the input of active speakers, you will get a good clear sound with stereo separation.

If you go via the interface, it is highly likely that, even if you plug into two inputs on the interface, you are actually only getting a mono sound from the two speakers, unless there is a facility on the interface topan the inputs to left or right. Most interfaces don't have this, though it can often be done with software.
Click to expand...

Pretty sure this ^^^ is the issue.
 
I assume you want to go through the interface so as to record the synth output?

That really should not be a problem but we really need the make and model of the synth and the interface. I have in the past found it very difficult to find a specification for the actual output level of keyboards and synths but I eventually found that most deliver around -10dBV or some 300mV. However it is possible some upmarket keys could run at studio OP level of +4dBu and that could push some 'lesser' interfaces into distortion.

There is the possibility that you are going into the 'instrument' inputs* of the AI? These are designed for passive guitar levels, 1/10 th of 300mV and sometimes have poor headroom compared to 'line' inputs (bloody shouldn't but many do!)

But, what do you mean by "not nice"? Can you post a clip? (attach 320k MP3 for this old fool please)

*And why would you not?? They really should stick to the "High Impedance" moniker (aka High Z).

Dave.
 
We had this last year when we had a player with a rather nice Nord stage piano - and DI'd it in stereo to the PA, but ran the pan controls centred, and on one patch, the left and right totally cancelled out! It was great in stereo, but with Lesley simulations and phase sounds, the constant switching left to right in a wide auditorium is vomit inducing, so we usually narrow them. In this case, for some reason, the two channels weren't panned at all, and the Nord patch killed one of the sounds, till we realised and open the pans up a bit when it bounced back.
 
rob aylestone said:
You said you p-lug the piano into the speakers, so we assumed you meant the loudspeaker output, it the speakers, but now I suspect you have powered monitors, so it's the line level out you are talking about?

First step - what interface have you got. We know most of them so can then guide you through likely things. I suspect that your piano probably doesn't have that nice an output - to be honest, few do. Yamaha Clavinovas sound quite nice through their speaker systems, but often sound thin and weak when connected to other kit.
Click to expand...

rob aylestone said:
You said you p-lug the piano into the speakers, so we assumed you meant the loudspeaker output, it the speakers, but now I suspect you have powered monitors, so it's the line level out you are talking about?

First step - what interface have you got. We know most of them so can then guide you through likely things. I suspect that your piano probably doesn't have that nice an output - to be honest, few do. Yamaha Clavinovas sound quite nice through their speaker systems, but often sound thin and weak when connected to other kit.
Click to expand...

Hi,
Thanks for all the replies. I don't have a distortion in the sound or a weird effect noise I didn't configure. The problem is as in the quote above. "Yamaha Clavinovas sound quite nice through their speaker systems, but often sound thin and weak when connected to other kit"
My piano sound nice through the monitor speakers (stereo xlr outputs left/right to xlr monitors in left/rigth) But when I connect to my soundcard (stereo xlr output piano to stereo xlr inputs soundcard) there is a (a little) loss of the original piano sound. And I would like to know what can be the cause of that? Thanks
 
Hello5432§ said:
Hi,
Thanks for all the replies. I don't have a distortion in the sound or a weird effect noise I didn't configure. The problem is as in the quote above. "Yamaha Clavinovas sound quite nice through their speaker systems, but often sound thin and weak when connected to other kit"
My piano sound nice through the monitor speakers (stereo xlr outputs left/right to xlr monitors in left/rigth) But when I connect to my soundcard (stereo xlr output piano to stereo xlr inputs soundcard) there is a (a little) loss of the original piano sound. And I would like to know what can be the cause of that? Thanks
Click to expand...

This is what I posted earlier:

"If you are plugging left and right line-level output into the input of active speakers, you will get a good clear sound with stereo separation.

"If you go via the interface, it is highly likely that, even if you plug into two inputs on the interface, you are actually only getting a mono sound from the two speakers, unless there is a facility on the interface to pan the inputs to left or right. Most interfaces don't have this, though it can often be done with software."

Did you investigate that possibility? One quick way to test is to connect keyboard to interface, record a bit to a stereo a track (or to two mono tracks and pan them left and right), then playback.
 
Your description does sound like at least partial cancellation. Going direct to the speakers doesn't reproduce this to a great degree because they're spaced, but if in the software you have less than total separation, then it can creep in. You need to do some investigation and maybe try flipping the polarity on one channel - usually a button to press in the software. If you have something a bit more sophistcated, software wise, you may have a stereoscope of some kind that will show you visually what's going on. If your speakers are movable, then plug into them direct, and then move them together as close as you can manage - I bet if you do this the sound will suffer. It could be something as simple as one of the XLR leads being wired with pin 2 and 3 swapped. On wide speakers with reverb and other treatment it's often unnoticed, bring the speakers close and they fight!
 
Two guys here are telling you what the problem likely is. When you're going directly from your Yamaha to your monitors.........that is keeping the stereo signal separated properly. When you're plugging into your sound card......you're getting the same sound out of it....but without real stereo separation so it will sound as if something is "missing". In any case.....until you give us the make and model of your sound card......we have no way to solve your issue. If you can provide us that info.......I think we can give you the right advice.
 
Hello5432§ said:
Hi,
Thanks for all the replies. I don't have a distortion in the sound or a weird effect noise I didn't configure. The problem is as in the quote above. "Yamaha Clavinovas sound quite nice through their speaker systems, but often sound thin and weak when connected to other kit"
My piano sound nice through the monitor speakers (stereo xlr outputs left/right to xlr monitors in left/rigth) But when I connect to my soundcard (stereo xlr output piano to stereo xlr inputs soundcard) there is a (a little) loss of the original piano sound. And I would like to know what can be the cause of that? Thanks
Click to expand...

I am not aware of any keyboards that have STEREO XLR outputs. If you have XLR outputs, they are MONO balanced.
 
gecko zzed said:
Someone was down at my place with a piano that had XLR outputs. Each XLR would be mono balanced, but they were designated L and R, like the adjacent 6.5mm outputs.

I also found this:

recording - XLR vs 1/4 (jack/TRS/TS) output on digital piano. What is better to connect to audio interface? - Music: Practice & Theory Stack Exchange
Click to expand...

Right, from what the OP posted it sounded like was connecting one XLR from keyboard to interface (hence would only be getting a mono signal.
 
Quote:
Someone was down at my place with a piano that had XLR outputs. Each XLR would be mono balanced, but they were designated L and R, like the adjacent 6.5mm outputs.
I also found this:

Yes, My piano has exactly the same outputs as in the picture that is shown in the link above.
Two xlr left and right named balanced out
And two jack outputs right and left and at the left one is written mono.
 
gecko zzed said:
This is what I posted earlier:

"If you are plugging left and right line-level output into the input of active speakers, you will get a good clear sound with stereo separation.

"If you go via the interface, it is highly likely that, even if you plug into two inputs on the interface, you are actually only getting a mono sound from the two speakers, unless there is a facility on the interface to pan the inputs to left or right. Most interfaces don't have this, though it can often be done with software."

Did you investigate that possibility? One quick way to test is to connect keyboard to interface, record a bit to a stereo a track (or to two mono tracks and pan them left and right), then playback.
Click to expand...

Thank you all :)

Problem is Solved :) :) :)

Hurray :) :) :)

What I have done:

My Soundcard is Apogee Element 46.There is a snapshot template at the software of the soundcard what gives direct monitoring.
So I can hear the sound without daw.
In this direct monitoring I see four channels, corresponding to the four xlr inputs at the front of the sound card.
Above each channel in the software menu is written analog. I assume each channel is a mono analog signal.
For each channel (1-4) I can manage the gain level. And I can group the channels together and make from two channels one stereo channel.
So My piano has two xlr outputs what is named balanced out. left and right. They go to the xlr input at the front of the sound card corresponding to channel 1 and 2 in the software menu.
I have grouped channel 1 and 2 together and pressed the stereo button in the mixer 1 menu of the software of the sound card to make one stereo channel of channel 1 and 2.
In combination with enough gain, but not too much I get a sound what is almost the same as the original piano sound.
I am very happy :).

I still love to know why. How come is there such a (little) difference in the sound between this settings? My piano sends a mono sound to channel 1 and a mono sound to channel 2 right?
When I play then on my piano I hear sound from both speakers left and right. Then I group channel 1-2 and make them stereo. Panning is still in the middle, set to zero, by the way. And the sound changes..... How does this happen?
 
rob aylestone said:
Your description does sound like at least partial cancellation. Going direct to the speakers doesn't reproduce this to a great degree because they're spaced, but if in the software you have less than total separation, then it can creep in. You need to do some investigation and maybe try flipping the polarity on one channel - usually a button to press in the software. If you have something a bit more sophistcated, software wise, you may have a stereoscope of some kind that will show you visually what's going on. If your speakers are movable, then plug into them direct, and then move them together as close as you can manage - I bet if you do this the sound will suffer. It could be something as simple as one of the XLR leads being wired with pin 2 and 3 swapped. On wide speakers with reverb and other treatment it's often unnoticed, bring the speakers close and they fight!
Click to expand...

Would you like to explain this please?Why might the sound changes (or is this is always?) if you put the speakers close together?And what does this polarity mean. My software has a polarity button indeed. If I go the direct monitoring menu of the software of the sound card and keep channel 1 and 2 seperated (make not one stereo channel) I can put the polarity for each channel on and off. I did this for each channel, but I couldn't notice any differences in the sound.
 
Polarity is the correct term for what we used to call phase. If you have a two channels of audio, and you pan them both centre, normally all is well - they just become one in the middle. However, if you change the polarity of one of the channels, as they approach the pan centre position, they cancel out. Completely, if the two channels are identical, but in the case of a keyboard or synth, because of the reverb, the synthesis or sampling the cancellation can be partial - with a characteristic 'thin' and weak sound. The Nord keyboard I experienced issues with had one channel of one voice polarity reversed. The string sounds were fine, but the piano patch virtually disappeared in the PA, but the player on stage had two speakers - one left and one right and didn't notice!

If the speakers are spaced, one channel set to the opposite polarity makes hardly any difference, but pick up one speaker and move it towards the other makes the output appear quieter and quieter. You need to find out how to try this cancellation and then see if it's the tone change you don't like. In the software, panning the left fully left and right fully right is usually OK, but even a little bit of R in the left and vice versa will produce partial cancellation.
 
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