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Thread: How many people can hear the difference between...

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by spitzer View Post

    What Miroslav started with is borderline "nothing at all should be tested or at least can not be trusted" and that is a subject I won't touch and is out of place here.
    Oh...ok...so now you know what I meant to say even if I didn't say it.

    My point was that there are tests that have analytical results...but the thing you are looking for, "how many people can hear a difference" is never going to be analytical...only subjective. IOW...how do we know that someone does or doesn't heart a difference, or what that difference is...?

    Again...what is it that you're trying to drill down to? Just cut to the chase, it will help the discussion get to a point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by miroslav View Post
    ... because it can't be just "have there been any tests".
    It can't?

    And honestly, I stopped reading your post instantly when you argued that actually I don't even know what question I should be asking... but YOU do. Eh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by spitzer View Post

    And honestly, I stopped reading your post instantly when you argued that actually I don't even know what question I should be asking... but YOU do. Eh?
    Right...that's why you keep responding to my posts.
    OK...I guess you don't know how to, or don't want to cut to the chase and ask what you really want to ask.

    AFA have there been any tests to see who can tell the difference between A & B in the music industry with numbers showing proportions within the group....No.

    Next question.


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    Quote Originally Posted by miroslav View Post
    Right...that's why you keep responding to my posts.
    OK...I guess you don't know how to, or don't want to cut to the chase and ask what you really want to ask.

    AFA have there been any tests to see who can tell the difference between A & B in the music industry with numbers showing proportions within the group....No.

    Next question.

    I think you know that is not at all what I asked. Your "facepalming" is really unnecessary.

    I specifically said I am NOT looking to start another debate on the subject, so maybe you can kind of see why I wanted to avoid asking a bunch of loaded questions or making claims myself? We've gotten a handful of very useful replies here that do address what I'm looking for. So most people indeed read my original post exactly right: have there been studies like this, and where are they? (btw, I would like to see some studies that specifically EXCLUDE "audiophiles". That would be interesting!)

    What do you think would have happened if I had started by making a claim that a specific A sounds better than a specific B? Why would I have started a thread like THAT in the first place?

    Best regards.

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    I hate to say "I told you so, but...."

    Seriously, you could take 2 people with precisely measured, identical hearing, give them each a pile of money, put them in a 1970s Hi-Fi store, and I'd bet they'd walk out with different speakers and headphones to listen to the same music, if not turntables, phono cartridges, preamps and amps, too. How can this be anything but subjective? (Corollary, related question for further discussion: how many studio monitor speaker manufacturers can you fit on the head of a pin?)

    But, carry on...
    "... I know in the mornin' that it's gonna be good
    when I stick out my elbows and they don't bump wood." - Bill Kirchen

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    Quote Originally Posted by keith.rogers View Post
    I hate to say "I told you so, but...."

    Seriously, you could take 2 people with precisely measured, identical hearing, give them each a pile of money, put them in a 1970s Hi-Fi store, and I'd bet they'd walk out with different speakers and headphones to listen to the same music, if not turntables, phono cartridges, preamps and amps, too. How can this be anything but subjective? (Corollary, related question for further discussion: how many studio monitor speaker manufacturers can you fit on the head of a pin?)

    But, carry on...
    I don't follow. Who said this isn't subjective?

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    I still think there was more to your question than "have there been any studies"...because there would be an underlying reason why you would want to know that.

    That's why I said cut to the chase.
    I still don't know what you really want to know (well, I can guess)...and all the "helpful" replies were talking about the same stuff I was...about the "why" and not "was there a test".

    So let me ask it directly...WHY do you want to know if there was a test?
    This thread would be better if you would answer that instead of debating how people are misunderstanding you and reading into the "why".

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    Quote Originally Posted by spitzer View Post
    I don't follow. Who said this isn't subjective?
    To me, "study" implies scientific, objective methodology to ascertain something measurable/quantifiable. Your post title says "how many people can hear the difference" so we have assume there's a physical, measurable thing being studied. I think what is maddening for all of us is how this kind of topic always turns into a tree circling waste of time, as the goal post keeps getting moved.

    I posted one study that was related to lossy audio, but the posts by some participants exposed some of the tests faults, but many are the kind you cannot rectify in a test of this kind of thing, where the simple matter is, some things don't matter in the same way to all people, i.e., even if their perceptive ability might make it possible to discern differences, it could be that this is not in an area they have trained themselves to recognize, or they just don't care. That's only "subjective" in the sense that some of the subjects think about things differently, not that there's a subjective (vs. objective) part of the hypothesis or test method. I can think of all kinds of things you might do to mitigate a lot of the variables in testing, pre-test hearing exams, controlled listening environments, etc., but then what do you have? Results to a test that have no basis in application in the real world. Nobody wants to pay for that. (A subjective, unfounded IMHO.)
    "... I know in the mornin' that it's gonna be good
    when I stick out my elbows and they don't bump wood." - Bill Kirchen

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by miroslav View Post
    I still think there was more to your question than "have there been any studies"...because there would be an underlying reason why you would want to know that.

    That's why I said cut to the chase.
    I still don't know what you really want to know (well, I can guess)...and all the "helpful" replies were talking about the same stuff I was...about the "why" and not "was there a test".

    So let me ask it directly...WHY do you want to know if there was a test?
    This thread would be better if you would answer that instead of debating how people are misunderstanding you and reading into the "why".
    Well, asking directly is much better than what the alternative was!

    What is your guess? What do I really want to know?

    Of course there is an underlying reason or actually, many reasons. Trying to figure out what they are, is purely subjective and pointless. Right? No. But that is actually a really complex question. It's difficult to say. I don't remember the exact thoughts in my head at that time. I can't put it into a few words in just a few minutes. It'll take at least 10.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by spitzer View Post
    I don't follow. Who said this isn't subjective?
    Quote Originally Posted by keith.rogers View Post
    To me, "study" implies scientific, objective methodology to ascertain something measurable/quantifiable. Your post title says "how many people can hear the difference" so we have assume there's a physical, measurable thing being studied. I think what is maddening for all of us is how this kind of topic always turns into a tree circling waste of time, as the goal post keeps getting moved.

    I posted one study that was related to lossy audio, but the posts by some participants exposed some of the tests faults, but many are the kind you cannot rectify in a test of this kind of thing, where the simple matter is, some things don't matter in the same way to all people, i.e., even if their perceptive ability might make it possible to discern differences, it could be that this is not in an area they have trained themselves to recognize, or they just don't care. That's only "subjective" in the sense that some of the subjects think about things differently, not that there's a subjective (vs. objective) part of the hypothesis or test method. I can think of all kinds of things you might do to mitigate a lot of the variables in testing, pre-test hearing exams, controlled listening environments, etc., but then what do you have? Results to a test that have no basis in application in the real world. Nobody wants to pay for that. (A subjective, unfounded IMHO.)
    Oh, ok, I see. We should maybe be more specific.

    You can make a scientific study about "What is the best motion picture of all time?", choosing only yourself as part of the group being studied, ask yourself, then compile the data. Obviously the question is completely subjective, but that's not where it goes wrong is it? The sample size is ONE, but everything else about the study would still be completely correct. Picking the sample population and doing the actual raw statistical work are two completely different things. Right? Do this again but instead ask 1000 people picked truly at random. Now you would have something much more useful than just your own opinion. This would still be something along the lines of "objective subjectiveness" which was mentioned in passing before. However, that is NOT subjective anymore. It is objective. It is not someone guessing what the participants answered but an objective compilation of what they actually answered. I don't have a problem with this method.

    As for "nobody wants to pay for ..." , that would not explain why a school, non-profit organization, the state etc. etc. would not do it (which is what? ) . Who was it on here that mentioned "[[company name here]] has done these tests, but will not publish the results" ...

    I for one definitely hope this doesn't turn into a waste of time. Why should it?

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