FocusRite vs Mixer Sound Quality Difference

arcticranger

New member
I've just re-setup my studio, it's basically

Windows 10
Sonar X2
Mackie 1202 VLZ3
Focusrite Saffire 6 USB

Yesterday I tried recording an analog sequencer, a Dave Smith Evolver. The stereo outputs of the synth were plugged into the 2 inputs of the Saffire and the Sonar track was set to stereo. I was listening via the Saffire headphone jack. The resulting recording was tinny.

I shut down Sonar and listened to the synth thru the Saffire only and it was still tinny. I then plugged the synth directly into a stereo Mackie channel and listened via the Mackie headphone jack.

World of difference. Synth to Mackie gives all the depth and detail that synth to Saffire loses. I ran this comparison many times adjusting the Saffire gain and got some improvement but not enough to satisfy my ears.

So my questions are

1. with Sonar shut down, is the synth still routing through my Windows tower or only going only through the Focusrite?

2. is this a matter of Mackie vs Saffire pre-amps?

3. any opinions on why the sound is so different?
 
1) You would not usually put a synth through a MIC input. Are you going into the Saffire's LINE or Instrument inputs?
2) Similarly you would use line inputs on the mixer so again, mic pres should not be an issue (and I doubt they would be anyway)

If the sound coming out of the F'rite's headphone jack is "tinny" you should be able to record it. Can you post two clips. A 320k MP3 attachement works best for me.

Dave.
 
The FR has two 1/4 inputs with a line and instrument switch. I've got it set to line, ie it is not depressed which would be instrument (and i think mic). The gain is at 5 but various gains haven't improved the sound.

The sound out of the FR headphone jack is the same as the recorded wav file in Sonar so I can attach that. But I don't know how to get an MP3 of the sound I'm hearing from the Mackie because I've only got the FR to record with.
 
- Were you using TRS cables (for balanced connection) or TS cables (for unbalanced connection)? The Evolver has unbalanced outputs and as such, TS type cables should be used to connect to other gear. The input circuitry of the Saffire and the Mackie may be different even though their line inputs will accommodate a TRS type of input. The TRS plug ring connection back at the Evolver may not connect to anything in its jack and may not provide the Saffire with a full signal, thus sounding thin for the Saffire. The Mackie may be doing something different with its inputs that allow for this type of mismatch.
- The INST switch on the Saffire should not be enabled.
- Were the EQ setting on the Mackie set at 12 o'clock (zero cut or boost)?
 
The FR has two 1/4 inputs with a line and instrument switch. I've got it set to line, ie it is not depressed which would be instrument (and i think mic). The gain is at 5 but various gains haven't improved the sound.

The sound out of the FR headphone jack is the same as the recorded wav file in Sonar so I can attach that. But I don't know how to get an MP3 of the sound I'm hearing from the Mackie because I've only got the FR to record with.
Connect the Main Outs of the Mackie into the inputs of the Saffire :)
 
bear with me while i do a few tests based on your advice. but for now

- the connecting cables from Evolver to FR and Evolver to Mackie are cheapo unbalanced

- the Mackie EQ settings are all at U

- the INST switch on FR is not pressed down (enabled) since the synth is line level

- i did previously send the synth into the Mackie and the Mackie main outs into the FR, no change.

Back in a bit.
 
so i have found out that my Sonar X2 is creating 16-bit not 24-bit files despite the audio being set at 24-bit / 44,100Hz. I test recorded the Evolver thru the FR into Wavepad and that did a create 24-bit file. I've attached the comparison files and the 24-bit does sound a lot more like what I am getting straight into the Mackie.

Not sure where I will go with this as I am due for a Sonar upgrade but it's become such bloatware and does anyone use it nowadays anyway?
 

Attachments

  • sonar-16-bit.mp3
    1.6 MB · Views: 10
  • wavepad-24-bit.mp3
    2 MB · Views: 5
What you will need to check is this.

When you listen to your synth through the Mackie you are most likely getting a stereo sound.

When you listen through the Saffire, you are most likely getting a mono sound, i.e. the L and R channels of the synth are going into inputs 1 & 2. Saffire doesn't know that you are inputting a stereo signal. Were you to record this in Sonar on a stereo track (or two mono tracks panned L & R), and played it back through the Saffire, you would once again hear the stereo sound.


My guess is that it's the synth's stereo being collapsed to mono that makes it sound tinny.
 
What you will need to check is this.

When you listen to your synth through the Mackie you are most likely getting a stereo sound.

When you listen through the Saffire, you are most likely getting a mono sound, i.e. the L and R channels of the synth are going into inputs 1 & 2. Saffire doesn't know that you are inputting a stereo signal. Were you to record this in Sonar on a stereo track (or two mono tracks panned L & R), and played it back through the Saffire, you would once again hear the stereo sound.


My guess is that it's the synth's sterebo baeing collapsed to mono that makes it sound tinny.

Good point but I'm recording in stereo in Sonar and Wavepad also captured the 1/2 Saffire inputs as stereo. Both attached files s/b stereo. The tinnyness I referred to can be heard in the 16-bit file, it's a sharper less rounded quality. Unless I am hearing things.
 
- The 'Mixer' knob on the Saffire, is that set to 'Input' or 'Playback' when recording the synth and listening with headphones? Set full CCW to 'Input' will give you just the Saffire and nothing coming back from the computer. Setting the knob towards or fully to 'Playback' will send back audio from the software/computer if the DAW software is set to do so. Try the knob fully in each direction and listen for a difference. This may lend an idea if the DAW software is doing something funky.
- Presuming the 'Mono I/P' switch is not enabled (LED not lit) so you do hear stereo in the headphones and not the two channels mixed together. Try running just one of the synth cables into a Saffire input channel to assure only one side, left or right has signal and audio in just one earphone side.
- Focusrite drivers are installed and up to date and Sonar is showing the Saffire as the recording and playback device in options(?)
 
did some testing

- The 'Mixer' knob on the Saffire, is that set to 'Input' or 'Playback' when recording the synth and listening with headphones? Set full CCW to 'Input' will give you just the Saffire and nothing coming back from the computer. Setting the knob towards or fully to 'Playback' will send back audio from the software/computer if the DAW software is set to do so. Try the knob fully in each direction and listen for a difference. This may lend an idea if the DAW software is doing something funky.
- Presuming the 'Mono I/P' switch is not enabled (LED not lit) so you do hear stereo in the headphones and not the two channels mixed together. Try running just one of the synth cables into a Saffire input channel to assure only one side, left or right has signal and audio in just one earphone side.
- Focusrite drivers are installed and up to date and Sonar is showing the Saffire as the recording and playback device in options(?)

well i did a bunch of your tests. I am using the Evolver to Mackie sound quality as my reference point.

The Sonar recorded files (as it turns out) are 16-bit as noted above. So i tested using Reaper which was a 2 minute setup and seems to play better with the Saffire and Windows 10.

No real noticeable diff between Input and Playback with the Evolver plugged straight into Saffire. Mono is not enabled. I confirmed Saffire is receiving stereo and the resulting Reaper files are stereo. Then I compared Reaper playback via Saffire to Mackie against Evolver direct to Mackie. They are much closer than the Sonar files but still lack a degree of presence.

Evolver to Mackie to Saffire gave same results, I used the Alt 3/4 stereo outs for that.

My Saffire 6 USB is very old and time to upgrade. I'm not sure how the pre's compare to new models. Reaper looks ok and it's nice that it just overrides the Windows audio settings. I would attach another file but the sound that really matters is what I'm hearing via Mackie which I haven't captured digitally. Can I attach a 1/4 tape?
 
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Focusrite support just told me the Saffire 6 USB pre amps are designed to be very flat and that the difference I am hearing is due to the Mackie pre amps coloring the sound.

So hopefully that's it. But I learned a lot from you guys on this, thx.
 
Focusrite support just told me the Saffire 6 USB pre amps are designed to be very flat and that the difference I am hearing is due to the Mackie pre amps coloring the sound.

So hopefully that's it. But I learned a lot from you guys on this, thx.

Didn't you 'pre-color' the sound by connecting the Mackie into the Saffire, so you should have heard/recorded the colored sound of the Mackie?

- i did previously send the synth into the Mackie and the Mackie main outs into the FR, no change.

You should have heard the coloration of the Mackie I think, otherwise why do we buy expensive 'colored' preamps for our interfaces......... :)
 
yes, but i sent the signal via the Alt 3/4 rear outs, i''m going to repeat that test using the main outs now. Hopefully I will capture "Mackie color" as you suggest. Not sure how the Alt outs differ from Main outs.

I build effects into my synth voices, once I get one right I'm not going to be adding FX to it in the DAW.
 
So yes the wav recorded using the Mackie main outs has more color. It's not as perfect as the direct to Mackie sound but close.

Can you recommend any "expensive 'colored' preamps for our interfaces"? I'm somewhat new to audio recording but can't see using the mixer for that reason.
 
So yes the wav recorded using the Mackie main outs has more color. It's not as perfect as the direct to Mackie sound but close.

Can you recommend any "expensive 'colored' preamps for our interfaces"? I'm somewhat new to audio recording but can't see using the mixer for that reason.

Oh there is a plethora to choose from! Keep in mind that preamp "color" is going to be subtle. They're preamps and not FX boxes :)

Honestly though, I think there are 100 other things to spend money on before getting "color" preamps in a home studio. But if it floats your boat and you can afford it, go grab something nice. Spend a while online learning about the famous circuits from Neve, API, Focusrite, Avalon, etc. There's a flavor out there for every application.
 
Do bear in mind that any "colour" you might get with a pre amp* is level sensitive. Running most pre amps 20dB or so below their headroom limit is going to deliver a pristine, transparent sound. Think of guitar amps? Most are pretty clean at low level but get increasingly grungy as you drive them harder. Yes, there are a few amps from which it is next to impossible to get a clean sound but they are rare.

There is perhaps THE most in depth "shootout" of pre amps in an issue of Sound on Sound. Very carefully done with a MIDI robot piano playing the same piece each time. The results came back a month or two later and the guesses of which pre was which (cost ratio of some 10:1) were no better than chance. That is, none of the readers could spot the high end pre against a budget mixer. So, caveat emptor!

*I am still not sure. Are you going into LINE inputs? If so do bear in mind that many of the more expensive pre amps use a line stage that completely bypasses the mic amplifier? You might like to investigate passive DI boxes, especially the very cheap ones that use a tiny, pretty crap transformer? NOT! That transformers ALWAYS cause distortion! (for that is what "colour" is, distortion) There are several very clean pre amps with front end traffs and if you overdrive them I am reliably informed they sound shit!

Personally I would much rather get THE cleanest take I could then, if the humour was on me, frigg it a bit ITB? Once distorted there is no going back.

Dave.
 
I'm a hobbyist and have always been MIDI based. I record MIDI and listen to playback on 5 hardware synths plugged into Mackie stereo line inputs. And I bed wet (just kidding ha).

So I have always heard the music via Mackie headphone jack or Mackie outputs to an amp driving speakers. I've done some audio recording both synth to interface and synth to mixer to interface, always LINE input. Either way the resulting wavs have always sounded flat on playback.

Anyway my recording setup is now all synths into Mackie and Mackie Alt 3/4 to send a synth channel to the interface.

I guess it's either get familiar with some basic compression and EQ coloring of wav files in the DAW or get a new audio interface that provides some coloring options on the way in. I do have an "ideal sound" which you can hear on this recording and other done at Trident recording studio in the 70s.

YouTube
 
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