External Hard Drive Purchase Help

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My first hard drive was 10MB, in the PC (80286) I had around 1987. ....... Those were the days.
Man, could we trade some stories. Wow, a 286, huh?
The first drive i worked on was 1979. But it wasn't mine. IBM mainframe. 1/4 million dollar disc array, the size of a washing machine. Had to maintain the JCL coding for the housekeeping.
Nor did i own the Winchester in 1982 that a dentist had. 10 megs the size of 4 or 5 stacked pizza boxes. He spent something like $4500 on that thing. And it backed to 8 inch floppies, too.
My first ownership of my very own was in 1987, like you. 30 megs. 30 WHOLE megs. $350 or so; hooked SCSI to a Mac 512 specifically for MIDI and synth editing. Later upgraded that 512K Mac to 2 megs of internal RAM. 2 WHOLE megs. Super user <LOL>
I refused to stay up to 2am trying whip a PC into shape. I did that all day, why would i do that at home, right? My co-workers did, though. Besides, at the time, PC wasn't real fluent in MIDI, so I went Mac.
Even bought a 24K modem ($100?) and got on Telnet (still in 1987 or so) and found DX7 patches. It was like discovering treasure.
Ohwell.. enough of that...
Maybe next time I'll drone on and on about my Prophet-10 that I paid $8500 for. Got is used, that's why the price was so good. <LOL>

Ponder5
 
My first hard drive was 10MB, in the PC (80286) I had around 1987. About 5"^3 and probably weighed at least 10lb.

Since we're tripping down memory lane back to prehistoric computer days... :D ...late '80s was my first music computer. An Atari 1040ST that I paid a nice chunk-o-change to have the memory taken up to 4MB!!! I had to drive into NYC to some small computer shop where they had the RAM and knew how to add it to the Atari, because it was not a factory designed add-on, and it killed the warranty. They had to solder the memory into it...completely jury-rigged, but it worked.
AFA the hard drive for the Atari, it was an external, about the size of an old style phone book, and about 2" thick. :p

Of course...talking about drives from the '70s and '80s...even into the early '90s...is not all that relevant to the discussion of HDs of the last 10-15 years. Different technology and build quality altogether. Even the cheapest grade consumer HD today would run circles around anything from back then.
Heck...computing in general back then doesn't compare to today. When I first got into IT, there were some old-timers there, talking about the car-size mainframes, and the kluge of it all...but only the ones who stepped up to modern IT technology stuck around, the rest of them kind stopped where they were.
I remember a couple of ladies from that generation talking about the Unix wars and all that stuff...and a year later they were trying to keep up with the rest of us because they couldn't embrace the new stuff. We had to almost force the new technology in, otherwise they would still be running tape backups! ;)
 
I recall a debate in the letters page of the illustrious Wireless World magazine when digital recording was in its infancy. Someone proposed that the "ultimate recorder" would have no moving parts and be just memory.

It was pointed out that it would be as big as a small house and you would have to phone the power company before you could turn it on.

HOW many hours of 16bit .wav can you get on an 8G stick? Never mind MP3!

Dave.
 
So you're saying that basically all the models from a given manufacturer are of the same quality...just with different warranties...?

I don't think so.

Not across all models. Most models aren't available as enterprise drives. And enterprise drives usually are the better ones, as in "less likely to fail" in the warranty period. They usually get replaced (by bigger/faster drives) when the warranty runs out anyway. Otherwise, there's no sense in buying enterprise level drives. Zero added cost during economical lifespan seems to be the idea.

Besides, there aren't as many models of old-fashioned spinning disks around as there used to be. A 1 TB SSD is less than 200$ at the consumer level these days. Around 170$ corporate level. Purely for storage and archiving, rust is still competitive. Strangely, at the corporate level, there's still a lot of tape around.

People can choose to stick whatever kind of drive they want into an "enterprise" level system...but there certainly are top-of-the-line drives, with better specs, longer lifecycles...and then the cheaper stuff.

Of course you can stick any SATA drive in whatever SATA or even SAS connection. If you want specialty drives, you need to look at SAS, SCSI, or even other stuff. But I'm not working for NASA. And these markets are drying up real fast. All SAS drives and most SCSI drives are sold under the enterprise label. But there's nothing that sets them apart from what you get if you buy them as a consumer. Except service, but that's limited to enterprise level customers. It used to be different. 20 years ago, you also had "AV" drives. Better suited for audio or video recording, as these wouldn't recalibrate heads at unfortunate times, ruining your recording. Those are long gone too.

That's why I find it funny when people say..."I'll never buy another _____drive"...as though every model from that manufacturer is the same quality, but they are not.

Quite right, especially, with just one and a half manufacturers remaining...
 
Not across all models. Most models aren't available as enterprise drives. And enterprise drives usually are the better ones, as in "less likely to fail" in the warranty period. They usually get replaced (by bigger/faster drives) when the warranty runs out anyway. Otherwise, there's no sense in buying enterprise level drives.

So then....you're now agreeing that enterprise drives are different and better than some cheapo drive from Wally Mart...?

Mmm...well that's what I was saying when you seemed to disagree, and say most were all the same drives, just with different warranties. :D
 
I'm still saying that...

Some models are not wanted in the enterprise market. That's why they're not sold under that label.
 
HDD spinning drives are great. Just have multiples for backup if you wish to never lose your data.

I keep hearing others say that they don't fail, and if they do, the data is easily retrieved. Hell no... From a bad experience I know that to be not true.

Backup to an external drive, then backup that drive to another backup drive. Redundancy is better than loss of data/music files...

Apologies if any of this is redundant; I read through the thread and didn't see anyone mention some of the following stuff but I could have missed something somewhere.

First, why what I say is relevant: I build all my own PCs and have built a few dozen systems of various sizes for many different kinds of studios, from project studios to major Chicago rooms (I built a massive 24-rack space, multi-processor server that runs FOUR separate rooms on 20 drives at once back in January...but those drives are solid-state...more on that below), and I've been building PCs since I was a six year old in 1984. (My dad is a geeky tech guy who happens to love music. Haha.)

First, as Jimmy points out, he's had a bad experience with traditional spinning hard disks (HDDs) failing, which they do all the time, and if you think they "never" fail, I've got some land in Florida to sell ya. :) Just think logically: almost ANYTHING with moving parts is gonna go bad at some point without regular maintenance, and "maintaining" an HDD in the sense of which I speak (physically maintaining, not data maintenance) is nearly impossible without a lot of experience and a few special tools and such.

Also, there are multiple issues with not only tracking to external HDDs but also with real-time sample access from them as well (this depends heavily on how yer particular DAW accesses and uses samples; for example, Reason uses a far less CPU/drive intensive sample playback method than does ProTools). Industry standard HDD access speed for tracking audio is 12ms (preferably faster), and as the storage amount gets larger, that access time tends to get larger as well because of the nature of how spinning drives work. Now, if you are an absolute Nazi about defragging those HDDs, you *might* get away with tracking to them, depending on other factors within your system; bus speed and the compatibility between components thereof will greatly affect the access time to an external HDD. Personally, I would NEVER track to an external drive UNLESS it was a solid-state drive (SDD), which means there are no moving parts, and even then, all other factors would need be at top performance. (For example, if your external SDD has an access time of 5ms and a fast bus speed but your motherboard or USB board's bus speed is 5x slower than the SDD's, your data might not be able to transfer fast enough to keep up with the tracking speed requirements.)

I agree with everyone who suggested RAID setups; they are a no-brainer. HDDs are much cheaper per gig than SDDs, especially as the storage space increases, so using HDDs for a RAID setup makes perfect sense as long as *at least* the primary/master drive is internal. The associated slave drive can be external if one properly sets up the RAID system, but most people just put it inside the box, as there's typically no real need to take a RAID slave with you anywhere.

Personally, if I were you, I would invest in at least ONE good-sized SDD (256gb or bigger) and use that as your tracking drive. If you can afford it, I'd get two SDDs and use a smaller one (128gb or so) as yer system (C:) drive and then the larger one for tracking and sample access; then I'd use HDD's to RAID both of those SDDs, and I'd still use an external to back up my tracking/sample drive *separate* from the RAID system. The only real issue I have with RAID systems is that since they're automatic (for the most part), anything that infects the master is automatically sent to the slave. If you're physically backing up just your tracking drive by dragging the session files to it the external, there's less of a chance of those files getting screwed. But that's only slightly less of a chance.

Also, if you do go with any HDDs larger than 1Tb, make sure you partition them into separate drives. This will not only extend the physical life of the drive and improve performance but also helps safeguard against the entire drive becoming corrupted or infected, as when a single drive is partitioned, the OS recognizes them as separate physical drives (for all intents & purposes). I personally would never use a traditional HDD larger than 1Tb. Just too much chance of corruption and failure overall, and a whole Tb is a TON of data to lose in general but *especially* to data corruption. I can't imagine losing two or even three effin' terabytes of recording data. I'm sick just thinking about it.

If you go with SDDs, be sure to read up on the differences between them and HDDs; they require different maintenance and have different operating requirements. For example, *never* let an SDD operate with less than 10% free space available; it drastically reduces the drive's performance, which isn't nearly as true with HDDs.

Hope that helps. Once again, sorry if any of this was redundant.
 
A lot of us track to external (spinning) drives (even RAID!) and there's no problem. Really, the problem is almost always bus contention or some other resource, but that's why I make sure my interface and external drives are on different busses, and never off a hub, of course. (N.B. lots of folks successfully have their drives and interaces on the same bus. I just figure why have more data going both ways on the same "highway" when there's another one available.) USB 3.0 and the latest Firewire (old guy brain-fart/flashback! I meant Thunderbolt!!) devices kind of make even that precaution probably needless, though.

And, yeah, I kind of hate the super large drives, but if you're working with video, just a half dozen active projects can consume a ridiculous amount of space. You're going to be spending a lot of time cleaning up, archiving and moving projects around if you're trying to work in 1TB or smaller project directories IME. And 4k, fuggeddaboutit. (The size of my video project array is what's going to finally tip me over into cloud backup.)

Having spent over 20 years working for a PC/server OEM, I can say that besides variances in manufacturers (and there are, or at least were differences) and QC within a manufacturer's line, heat and shock are the big killers of the spinning drives, followed by the inevitable failures of the media and mechanics over time. If you're getting a notebook these days, SSD is the only thing to consider. Even with accelerometers to automatically do head parking in the higher end systems, moving a hard drive around a lot is just asking for trouble, and then packing it in a tiny space with lots of other heat producing bits around it, systems waking up inside travel cases ("bake-in-bag" scenario). Gah. The single biggest problem in the notebook industry. If you've got an older notebook and it's not screwed to a concrete desk, replace the HDD with an SSD for pete's sake.

With all that, for a non-mobile scenario, external spinning media is still a whole lot cheaper and for [local] backups would be/is the most sensible choice (IMO).
 
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With all that, for a non-mobile scenario, external spinning media is still a whole lot cheaper and for [local] backups would be/is the most sensible choice (IMO).

Wow, great info there, man, and I agree with all of it. I was just trying to address the hard drive issue specifically, especially since most people on here aren't gonna need to worry about much more than drive speeds...but yer 100% correct about bus speeds and not overloading a single bus and eating up too much bandwidth on one while leaving others wide open.

I've never built a system specifically for video...sounds like a fun challenge/learning opportunity. ;-)
 
If you've got an older notebook and it's not screwed to a concrete desk, replace the HDD with an SSD for pete's sake. (IMO).
So lets just say I was having "one of those days" traveling in China and fighting with internet connections and such and I gave my laptop a little slam....oops :eek: :o

So fortunately I had an IPAD with me to get me through the trip...when I got back to the sates I went to Frys, purchased and installed my first SSD...a little more tantrum proof.... WOO HOO! Man startup is a lot faster... Yeah SSD's are much less likely to fail...no mechanical / moving parts...still a bit pricey but was just looking the other day...thanks to Moore's law they are getting cheaper by the day....:guitar:
 
People also need to keep things in perspective...

Running a bunch of servers or any individual system in an 24/7 scenario, where physical drives spin endlessly...is generally not the reality most home rec or even smaller commercial studios live in for their DAW-specific systems.
So when the drive specs for x-number of lifetime spins on its warranty...you'll get there a lot sooner in a server, 24/7 situation, and if that's how you operate, then you need to CYA for that. :)

That said...if your DAW is also your gaming, email, web surfing, Netflix computer...then you're obviously going to run things harder, and the best thing is to at least use a separate drive(s) for the audio stuff.

For my DAW-specific system, a dedicated tower with multiple spinning drives is still the preferred way to go, with separate drives for OS, work & backup, and drum/instrument samples. I then backup the work two more times to external drives. I also churn out a Ghost image for the OS every time I've done a few new installs of plugs or done any reconfiguration, or just when it's been awhile since the last one...but since my DAW system is always offline, I have minimal changes the occur, and there's no patching or OS upgrades ever.
I also keep two spare drives for the tower...so it would take me about an hour to pull my OS drive if it died, and drop a saved Ghost image on a new one to replace it. For the other drives, if they died, it's just a matter of swapping with one of my spares and then copying the files over.
 
I'm considering a new back up, I have several small 2.5 inch drives and back up to separate places. I was considering a 3.5 inch drive with it's own power supply. From what I read here, that's kinda the basic starting point.
 
Ah! "always spinning drives" I have an old NAS drive (sits back of my living room chair) and it ran pretty hot. Then I RTFM'ed! You can set the drive to power down until called upon. This means about a 10 second wait while it wakes up but since it stays awake all the time you are using it , not a problem.

Dave.
 
Just to be clear: I have OS and samples on C: 500 GB SSD. 3 internal HDD drives. One is the main recording 1TB drive that is now full. Going to move that to an archive external case for safe keeping and replace. The two others are 2TB recording drives. One to record to, and one to backup to. Then there are the three external backup USB3.0 HDD's. Every time I reach a point where a bunch has been accomplished on a project, I backup to an external drive that is not constantly spinning. I have had good success recording to a USB 3.0 drive for a single project without issue with speed.

After losing two HDD 1TB Seagate drives in RAID 1 within one week of each other with complete platter failure, I realized that it is a better idea to manage backups in a more redundant way. There is nothing worse than telling a band that they need to start over with their recording that was almost finished. Not to mention the lost previous recordings of other bands that I have had to redo for free because of the data loss...

I tried using Carbonite for backup, but that only slowed down the PC and also had to be connected to internet. Both of which were not acceptable.

External drives are cheap. I just back the shit up likely more than necessary because I never want to have to tell someone 'I lost your tracks'. It kind of like telling someone 'your baby was just killed in an accident'. UGH...
 
3 letters...hold the key to the future and coincidentally the oldest form of data storage known to man. And also what makes it possible for the endless variety of life forms that exist in this illusion we call life.

Bizarre that in less than 10 years this will be a common form of data storage...there goes Moore's law out the fricking window...... Pfffft! Hard drives....I've got your hard drive hangin!

DNA
 
I feel I'd be hypocritical if I didn't chime in on the wonders of cloud computing here after my strong stance and reliance upon Google and their amazing infrastructure herein this thread.

Welllllll...This morning my two major and one minor e-mail accounts that all run on the Gmail system were hacked FUCK!

That I pay a small fee to the google every month is cool until today when I discovered if I can't log in, I can't talk to a fucking human or non fucking human for that matter! WTF how the hell am I supposed to be able to get to my G-suite "help" if I can't log in because my account has been hacked...Have no idea how this all went down...got an e-mail about a paypal verification...WTF? realized there had been some activity there went to log into my most often used e-mail account and my password doesn't work..Shit ...called paypal and said freeze the account...thems ain't my charges... Onward to gmail hell...Fortunately the hacker didn't change or maybe he couldn't change the e-mail notification on the accounts but he did ( using a google voice number) change the two tier verification...so the access codes were being sent to his phone...got 2 of the 3 accounts back finally after a lot of tries and head scratching...last one is under security lock by gmail and it is going to take 3-5 days for them to get back with my sorry ass...

Whew! Well the good news is even when I couldn't get to my most important Google drive I have it also stored on a portable at home so I still had access...All looks good in the e-mail and now I just have to watch the bank and credit card accounts for the next month....DAMN HACKER THIEVES :cursing: !


BTW if you have gmail accounts it is very handy to know when you opened them month and year...if you don't know see if you can figure it out and save them somewhere you can get to them if your ever hacked...2 step verification saved my ass and tortured it all in one fail swoop...took me all day to find when I opened one of the accounts...SHIT! But I'm rolling and the one is frozen until they get it figured out...sheesh HOLY STRESSED OUT DAY!
 
Bit OT but reff online monies?

I do have a Pal account but I have not used it in years and now never will (maybe I should close it?). I also do not have any form of phone or online banking.

Couple of months ago I had all my guttering replaced by a builder who did a bang up job to my roof two years ago. Bill came and I rang him to pay him. "Cannot take any cards over the phone". WTF! Ok, I'll send you a cheque. "Don't accept cheques". Ok I will put it through my local post office, give me accnt#, sort code and email bar code on paying in book. "Don't understand. Don't have a book"...***T"

So, I had to drag into the main Natwest branch (from NN5 5P*) and put the cash through to his account with my debit card. They had closed my local branch last November. That's the "Listening Bank" for you!

YOUR! Experience TAE make me more than ever convinced that online banking is a dodgy game!

I have to get a gas man in this month and a tree surgeon in at some point. I shall just have a big wad of cash handy. There's safe isn'n it?!

Dave.
 
I'll just add this to TAE's experience with the cloud:

Besides losing access to an account, some providers go out without any warning, sometimes.

Another thing a lot of people are using to add some privacy, or to be able to watch Netflix programming outside of the geo restrictions, is a VPN.

They all think it's adding to their online safety!

It's not...

Have a look here:

VPNscam.com - Exposing VPN Rip Off's and Scams

A lot of the cheaper VPN providers belong to one Estonian company, who is into the business of selling your data to anyone willing to pay for it. And that's just one example. Other companies have apps on Apple's Appstore to track you. Apple removed about forty of these some months ago. Newer ones are already up, despite the Appstore having slow entry for new apps. Needless to say Google's Appstore is far worse.

I estimate that around two thirds of all VPN providers are dodgy. The rest is either expensive, or free. But the free ones are disappearing fast as they are usually run by universities and those don't want to support/police Netflix traffic.

We're evolving fast to a situation where not only the news is fake...
 
Question: A UK TV drama came to the finale this week (Keeping Faith) and the heroine was moving 10s of 1000s of pounds around, seemingly effortlessly, on a smart phone.

Is there another level of VERY secure online banking for very rich people or was is just fiction?

Dave.
 
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