CDR media....

zip

New member
Has anyone else had this problem?....

You make a good demo and give it to a friend to check out...friend returns saying it skipped...

I confirmed my discs DO skip on some (usually cheaper) CD players (mainly car systems). I was told the problem is not my system...it's the type of discs I buy. I buy decent "name brand" discs but they are blue or green in color (recording surface). This guy tells me I need silver or gold surfaced discs as they are more reflective and less prone to have the cheaper player detect errors and skip.

Has anyone had this problem...can you reco a good disc?

Thanks...

zip
 
The colour of the die is not the critical spec. The quality of the media is, in the manufacturing process. And often it's what what works best with your particuliar hardware. I've had good luck with Mitsui Silvers, Kodak Gold and recently, TDK Silver's. That's silver and gold reflective surface, not the reading side. The reflection is from the top side, not the bottom. If you can read a newspaper through the disc it's usually a good indication of poor quality. It is trial and error for the most part. But starting with good media is best, rather than bargain basement (although these can work fine to). Burn audio at a reasonable rate as well, 2X - 4X any higher I've found obvious skips/glitches on ALL systems. As burners get better though, burning at 8X or 16X probably won't be a problem in the not to distant future.
 
Sorry to disagree with you Emeric...

The following is taken from a Media Science (a media testing facility) paper on CD-R technology:

Are green CD-R discs better than gold or blue ones?

This is an excellent question. Unfortunately, color is not a useful CD-R quality indicator. The human eye sees color in the visible portion of the light spectrum, while CD-R lasers operate in the infrared part of the spectrum. Only the interaction between the infrared laser and the organic polymer dye layer is important to quality, not visible color such as gold or green. Read lasers operate at a very low power level that does not alter the dye. Writers switch laser power to much higher levels that alter the dye during recording. The matrix of CD-R dye types, writers, firmware revisions, and recording software are far more complex than for CD-ROM discs.

CD-R discs first used a cyanine dye developed in Japan by Taiyo Yuden. Discs initially had longevity problems until stabilizers were added. Current products have good longevity. The blue color of this dye and the gold reflective layer combine to produce an emerald green or blue-green color. A relatively high laser recording power of 6.5 milliwatts is required at 1X, while greater intensities must be used at higher speeds. The relation between recording speed (1X, 2X, 4X, 6X) and power is non-linear. Although some uncertainty exists regarding the recording process, it seems that the laser bleaches the dye or alters its molecular structure in a manner that simulates pits and lands. A long write strategy is required, since the length of the altered region does not significantly exceed the region illuminated by the laser pulse. Taiyo Yuden licensed their dye to Ricoh and TDK. These companies also manufacture discs for resale under other brand names.

Phthalocyanine has excellent longevity and was developed in Japan by Mitsui Toatsu as an alternative to cyanine. The dye itself has little color and combines with the gold reflective layer to produce a gold-green or rich yellowish color. Laser recording powers are lower, about 5.5 milliwatts at 1X. Although greater powers are required at higher speeds, the relationship is non- linear. The recording laser may actually form depressions in the phthalocyanine dye polymer. These are significantly larger than the region illuminated by the laser pulse, requiring the use of a short write strategy during recording. Mitsui Toatsu licensed their dye to Eastman Kodak and to Mitsubishi/Verbatim. All three companies may manufacture discs for resale by other companies.

Recently the NCC subsidiary of Mitsubishi developed a metallized azo, or metal chelate, dye that is a dark blue color. Use of a silver reflective layer provides an attractive background for a label and combines with the dye to produce an unmistakable blue color when viewed from the readout surface. Azo CD-R discs are also marketed by Verbatim.

Taiyo Yuden established stabilized cyanine dye as a de facto reference for CD-R recorders. The appearance of Mitsui Toatsu phthalocyanine required recorder manufacturers to develop alternative recording powers and write strategies. These dyes utilize proprietary and patented formulas that may be modified from time to time. High speed, 2X, 4X and 6X recorders as well as azo dye has produced new challenges. This matrix of dye type and speed has produced constantly changing firmware revisions in CD-R recorders. Updates are generated as more is learned about the properties of the different dye types. Not all recorders use the same approach to recording power and write strategy. Therefore, certain writers may work best with certain media. Some manufacturers will supply the names of approved vendors upon request.

Reliance upon one type of dye, or even one brand, does not always produce high quality one-offs, since dye properties can change because of design modifications or lot to lot variations. Dyes are often applied by spin coating followed by a curing step, therefore properties can also vary from ID to OD. Also, third party dyes have appeared on the market. These are not Taiyo Yuden cyanine or Mitsui Toatsu phthalocyanine dyes, although visible colors may be similar. Their response to the infrared recording beam may be different from that of licensed dyes, resulting in different recorded quality.

Although awareness of quality issues is important, it is not necessary for the user to acquire expertise in dye chemistry, recording power, and write strategies. Instead, focus on regular testing that assures high quality one-offs. This requires specialized in-house equipment or use of an independent testing laboratory. Functionality in just one drive is not an adequate test, since verification using sector reads at the DOS level is insensitive to defects that cause the disc to fail in other drives. CD-ROM manufacturers regularly utilize sophisticated quality tests to assure interchangeability of their products. Anyone who generates one-offs must perform similar tests if costly or embarrassing field problems and product returns are to be minimized. Rely on test results, not color or brand name.


Bruce
 
DOH!!!!

Emeric said:
No problem Bruce,

But what are you disagreeing with?

Oops!!! I missed that critical word "not" in your statement "The colour of the die is not the critical spec."

What I saw was "The colour of the die is the critical spec."

Goddamn dyslexia acting up again... sorry Emeric - forget I said anything!!!

Bruce
:)
 
sooooo..........

I guess what the article is saying is stick with better quality discs and experiment. So far these discs have failed MY test...

Verbatim
Memorex Profesional
Imation

One that passed...

TDK (silver top)

One catch...it was burned on someone elses CD burner. One more thing...ALL had blue or green "dye"....

So what's next? Just keep experimenting until I find something that works OR...

Could it be my burner (Sony) or software (Adaptec)????

Any further thoughts??

zip
 
I've gone thru a batch of at least a hundred Maxell CD-Rs and not one coaster caused by media failure (bad mixes - sure! bad media, not so far!!!)

;)

Bruce
 
Oh yeah....

...add Maxells to the list of failures. Although a sticker on the package said for computer use only...not sure what that says about the quality.

I do burn at 2X - the slowest speed on adaptec.

I guess it's trial and error time....:(

zip
 
I and my co-workers burn a huge number of data CDRs at my day job, plus I burn a fair number of audio CDs at home. I have drawn the following (non-scientific) conclusions:

1) A CDR drive wears out after about 18 months of heavy use (less if you abuse it). Just starts slagging more and more disks until it is useless.

2) Any color name brand CDR can be fine, but occasionally there seems to be a bad "lot" (we buy them 200 per box, whatever major brand our vendor has on sale that week). For example, right now we have a batch of Maxcell CDRs that have been failing at a rate of about 10%, while the last batch of Maxcells we had were perfect.

3) While data CDRs can usually be written at the fastest possible speed, it is better to write out audio at 1X or 2X. And if you are copying an audio CD, you are limited by the digital audio extraction speed of the source drive (which in all but the newest models is usually 1x or 2x tops)
 
I agree with everything that has been said. What I've found is that "some" brands just don't seem to work well with "some" CD burners. Find a brand that works and stick with it (although the "batch" issue mentioned by RWhite might be a factor here).

Lastly, if you're burning audio CD's you will have better success with them playing on other systems if you use the Disc-at-Once method of burning rather that Track-at-Once or Multi-Session.
 
I usually always burn in DAO mode...but you guys may be on to something with the "batch" analogy...

Started to have some better luck with a different purchase of Memorex Gold professional.

Does anyone know where you can buy the
"better" discs - Mitsui Silvers' etc...in less than packs of 50?? I would hate to throw down 60 of 70 bucks to have the same prob...

zip
 
and...

...one other thing. A friend told me the Adaptec CD Creator software is a joke with a very high error rate...he reco'ed Nero Burn. Anyone ever use both and have a preference?

Thanks!

zip
 
just my experience...

Sony discs are by far the best I've used personally, and even though they can be more expensive they are the only ones I buy for audio now. Never had problem burning them on several different drives or reading them on any CD players. I have had lots of problems with the others you mentioned though.

Also, I worked with several programmers a while back that used to work at a company that made CD-R jukebox software. While it seems that dye has nothing to do with it from what other people have said and to an extent proven, they always had problems with green discs, while never having problems with silver or blue discs. And they burned about 100 a week for several months testing their code. Just relating an experience, not that I'm disagreeing with what others have said and supported to be true. Maybe they had something in their code that is prejudiced against green discs. :) On the other hand, I have noticed that "transparent" discs like Emeric mentioned tend to be colored green more often than not, so maybe that has something to do with why people tend to think it's the color. The company I work for now went through just about every brand of disc around to distribute our software on before we settled on one, and we saw plenty of crappy media, much more bad than good actually. Last time I worked on that stuff we settled on Sony Silver and Mitsui Silver like you mentioned. Whichever we could get cheaper in bulk when we reordered them. If I was in the main office still I would grab a few for you to try, but I'm out of that part now, so too bad for us both. ;)
 
Recording Software

I used Adaptec EZCD Creator Deluxe 4 software on two machines at work and one at home. I just bought a new TDK 12x burner for my DAW at home and it comes with a version of Nero (which only runs on TDK burners unfortunately)

I can't complain about the EZCD software, it seems to work as advertized. Any problems I have had with slagging CDRs seem to be related more to a bad batch of discs (see my previos note) or a CDR Burner that is just wearing out and going south.

The Nero program seems nice, although the version I have does data CDs only (they give you a seperate program for audio). EZCD does both. I guess I like the EZCD interface better but that is probably just because I am used to it.

A few things:

First I recently found out that installing EZCD Creator results in several Windows system files being over written. I just posted a new thread about this subject, you can read about it there.

Second, I HIGHLY recomend that if you are going to copy CDs from an IDE reader to an IDE burner that you have them on different controllers. IDE controllers do not do a very good job at similtanious reading & writing, and this can generate a lot of "buffer underrun" CD coasters. Probably a good idea when going from hard disk to CDR burner too. All my systems have the following setup:

Primary IDE controller:
Boot/system hard drive as master
CDR Burner as slave
Secondary IDE Controller:
Data Hard drive as master
CD or DVD drive as slave

This way if you copy CDs or just make backups from your data drive you are not reading & writing to the same IDE controller at once.

People with SCSI drives can just sneer at this whole issue.
 
I also have used EZCD from Adaptec quite extensively over the last three years with absolutely no problems. Like everyone else, any problems I've had were related to a bad batch of CD-R's (including a batch of "unbranded" silver ones that I ultimately returned for credit after finding I couldn't write to them at all).

I now use Wavelab to burn my audio CD's, but I do that because of the .wav editing capabilities and meta-normalizing feature, not because of any particular problems with EZCD.

Like RWhite, I have my burner on a different IDE controller than my hard drive (although this was because the ribbon cable for the secondary controller was closer when I installed my burner; not because I was as smart as he is).
 
I have a Plextor 4/12 CD writer that I have had for close to three years. I use CD architect and have used Verbatims from Sam's Club thruout the entire time. I have easily burned 2000 CD's and have never heard a report of them not playing on anyones CD player..be it a car, boombox..anything.....and I know my CD's have gotten out and been played on a wide variety of systems...not to mention the many I have played them on too.

Personally, I think the quality of the writer, possibly the CD software program has contributed to my sucess. I would never buy another writer other than a Plextor, since they really cost the same as most other popular writers, and their reputation seems far and above the rest.

oh..btw, the Verbatims are 30 cents ea. at Sams on a 100 Spindle, and they used to cost upwards of $2 ea. when I first got the writer. I can appreciate that too!!

my educated guesses....
 
ta da!!

I think many of the above posts are correct. I found Memorex Gold Professionals and Verbatim Audio have both fixed the prob...

The Memorex are the green phenylcyanine type and the Verbatim are the azo dye type so this I believe supports the color doesn't matter theory. QUALITY matters.

Most of the discs I had probs with were cheaper Imations of those Maxells which were labeled computer only...

They were probably bad batches....

Anyway - thanks to all. I've learned a ton about CDs' with your help.

zip >>
 
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