The actual ACT of recording to computer

adam

New member
This isn't a question about which soundcard or computer, etc. It is about the process you use to actually record into the computer. Specifically, recording, playback, monitoring.I guess my 2 biggest questions are around LATENCY and MONITORING.

First, is latency an issue when you are recording while listening to previously recorded tracks? If so, how on earth can you accurately record a new track with the right timing? How would you overcome this issue? (My computer: 750mhz, PIII, 128 ram, 30 gig hd - will buy either Delta 1010/Vegas or Aard24/Cakewalk).

Second, what is a typical wiring set up for monitoring either for mixing or for adding additional tracks. Neither soundcard has a headphone jack. For monitors, I assume you use the outs in a stereo pair. When you have 8-10 outs, I assume that is for multiple monitor set ups, outboard gear/effects etc.? I don't plan on buying an outboard mixer at this point.

Over the last year I've learned alot from these boards and made the transition to digital recording (Fostex FD-8) and am now making the jump to a computer-based system. My last hurdle is to understand these processes. Thanks in advance.

Adam

PS: While I'm on this board, I couldn't resist a computer question. Should I consider a 2nd harddrive for audio? More RAM? The computer is for work use too so I have other stuff on the computer - anything I should lookout for?
 
Since youre using your comp for work, too, you might consider a dual-boot scenario. And Id DEFINATELY consider a 2nd HD. and More RAM always is nice :)

Have you been having latency problems?? Cus I read about it, but it never happens to me.. so I think maybe its an urban myth.. See if you get any, THEN worry about it.

And Indeed, you use a stereo pair for monitoring. Probably the first two outs. You can get a handy cord to plug el stereo pair into your monitors of choice.

xoxo
 
Yean Camn glad I'm not the only one: What is this latency thing all about? The only time I ever really see it is when I run stuff like softsynths, i.e. trying to play them from a midi keyboard.

When recording in Cubase there's never a prob. I assumed this is because the asio setup knows you machine's inherent latency (the time to route the signal from inputs through motherboard etc etc) and can therefore easily COMPENSATE for it.

Or have I got it all wrong (again)? :*(
 
Camn and Klytus, Thanks for the replies. Yeah, reading about latency really gets me worried but I don't hear too many folks on these boards discussing it. That's why I was curious. Is it really not an issue?

I guess I should see how everything works when I install the soundcard before I worry but the latency issue just seemed like it could be a big issue. In every software review I have read they always are discussing latency and the things you can do to try to minimize it.

I will look into the dual boot issue --

Thanks again,

Adam
 
First, let me throw in a comment that I just added to another thread: the dual-boot thing is not necessary in my opinion. If you have a handful of regular apps and games that you run besides your audio software you shouldn't really have any trouble running it all under the same OS. I'm using two hard drives and just to keep things clean I tend to format and reload my OS drive every few months anyway (some dead weight always builds up, apps I never use, old games I don't play), but I've never run into a problem doing it this way. I've done dual boot systems before for other reasons and rebooting to switch OSs gets really old really quick. Not worth it to me. I only have a Celeron 375 too, with 128MB of RAM and two 20GB hard drives. Hell, it even ran fine all on one hard drive until a few days ago when I added the second one.

Latency *can* be a problem. Depends on the recording software and the drivers. I've experienced both sides of it. I have a MOTU 1224 and I used to use Cool Edit Pro which doesn't support ASIO drivers. There was some latency, but through trial and error I found the correct value to feed CEP in one of the setup/options dialogs to compensate for it. When I switched to Logic Audio I didn't have the ASIO drivers installed yet and latency was killing me. I couldn't get the setting right to fix it. Then I reinstalled the MOTU drivers, this time selecting the ASIO drivers, and all latency issues went away without messing with any settings or anything. So ASIO seems to take care of that stuff if you use hardware and software that supports it.
 
Diragor -- Thanks for the reply. I believe that Cakewalk uses proprietary technology called "wavepipe" instead of ASIO. Not sure if this is a good or bad thing.


So latency DOES exist --- I was thinking it was indeed a legend like the lochness monster or bigfoot. ;)


Adam
 
I like my wife when she's all LATEXY, but I think that's something different. This is interesting convo, though.
 
Wait wait wait.

The term latency is sort of ambiguous in this realm.

There will always be some delay (latency) when mixing on a computer. With non-ASIO you will typically notice anywhere from 1/4 to 1 second of delay when adjusting audio properties (levels, effects, etc), depending on how you set your buffering up. Using ASIO drivers substantially decreases this time, but technically, there will always be a small amount of latency.

The kind of latency that people always freak out over is what adam is worried about. That is, "will what I'm recording be in synch with what's playing back." This is often referred to as "lag". The answer to this question is almost always "don't worry about it". Only in rare cases is lag ever a factor...usually whne you're cutting corners...using a cheap soundcard, trying to synch two cheap soundcards, using an underpowered machine etc. If lag is a problem, most software will allow you to compensate for it.

Personally I use a stupidly cheap AudioPCI card that can be had for 30 bucks or so. I had lag problems with a cheaper ESS card. Buy quality and you'll get quality results.

Really, if lag were a serious issue, then nobody would be recording on computers. So take all the "warnings" you hear with a grain of salt.

Slackmaster 2000
 
Slack -- Thanks -- you are exactly right on target. I am less concerned about the lag when applying effects etc. but was most concerned about having new tracks recorded not syncing with existing ones. Like I said, for the life of me I couldn't figure out why no one ever talked about it except every article or product review. Thanks again!

Adam
 
I agree with what's been said. Also, you said that you may be getting the "Aard 24" -- assuming you mean the Aardvark Direct Pro 24/96, they go into detail explaining what they do that prevents any lag. I haven't tried to understand it but it does work. Also, the breakout box does have a headphone jack. It also has a virtual "patch bay" on its virtual mixing board that enables you to record and play back independently or through the monitor mix. Your software will control the set up for playing back as you record, of course.
 
On the question of two drives, from a performance standpoint, you can achieve the same results from one drive with multiple partitions. The advantage comes from being able to write audio to the outer tracks of the disk where the sector count is higher. Check this link to get the full scoop but be prepared for a long, somewhat heavy read. The part I'm talking about is about 3 or 4 pages in but there's all kinds of tweaking tips in it. http://www.txconnect.com/home/ignot/article/art.htm
Two drives is great for backup but if money is a question I think there are higher priorities.
 
Thanks again for the replies, LI Slim -- I was looking at the Aard24 - their 8 i/o card w/o preamps. I would prefer the 24/96 -- I don't need all those in's but I need an ADAT I/O.
ap - I'll give it a read -- thanks. I wouldn't mind having the 1 hard drive - it is 30 gigs, but damn does Microsoft and Dell put a TON of crap on your machine -- I got it and it was already down to 15 gigs! I erased a ton of stuff but it is still at only 20 gigs. I use this for work too but don't much on it. I'll see how much a second hard drive costs -- depending on if I want an at least 7200 rpm, 9-20 gigs I could get one for like $200 which is ok. Trying to sort out the IDE, Ultra, internal SCSI issue. You give up space for speed with the SCSI but you can get a 9 gig one for about $220. Trying to figure out if a 5 sec seek time is that much better than 8-9 for audio.
 
I run a 5400 for programs and a 7200 for storage and it's totally fine.

$.25

xoxo
 
Just wanted to get my oar in on the subject of latency. The latency question is one i get asked ever day (i work in music tech retail, have done for over 4 years) and it IS an issue - but, as earlier replies stated, its not really a problem most of the time.

Just to recap - Latency is the difference in time between a "call" and a "response" and is inherent in all computer based software and is caused by the processing time of something you've asked your computer to do. So, move a fader in Cubase and the volume will actually change slightly behind the move - latency. Monitoring an input signal through software might be delayed - latency. Hitting a key and hearing the sound of a soft synth - difference between the two is latency. Hitting "play" and the audio playing back - latency. Its everywhere but for years, when you really did get about a full second of latency you worked around it. Impossible to monitor your input through the software because of the lag so you monitor before the audio hits the soundcard - at worst, stand next to yourself while you sing! or use a mixer to do it properly.

The amount of latency you get is essentially down to the connection between the software and the soundcards drivers. With normal windows drivers (MME) you can expect a latency of 750ms (3/4 of a second). With DirectSound you should be able to get down to under 30ms which is when software synths start to get playable. Similarly with ASIO (Cubase) or EASI (Logic) drivers you should be abl to get down to about 3ms depending on what the rest of your computer is doing and how much audio you are running.

For many pro people any kind of latency is a nightmare and unacceptable which is why people pay 10s of thousands of pounds/dollars on Pro Tools TDM systems which work on DSP cards to remove the latency issue.

For the most of us the main time we see it is with softsynths so if you want to use them you'll need a decent soundcard with good ASIO or similar drivers. Check out my site for examples:
http://www.pc-music.com

The other increasingly common feature is the soundcard having the ability to monitor an input straight back out again therefore bypassing the whole latency issue. This can be found in the Delta cards for instance.

I'm not sure if i can remember what i was trying to say now or what point i was attempting to make other than to say that you are right - latency is an overblown scare story that actually affects few people in a disarterous way, but it can also be a very real problem - it all depends on what you are trying to get your computer to do.

Cheers
Robin
http://www.pc-music.com
 
c7sus -- Thanks, it is amazing to me how prices of hard drives have dropped. Good point about the SCSI adapter. It seems everyone is having good results with a 7200 rpm, drive.

Robinv -- that is a very thorough response. thanks very much. you present a good point about monitoring your input before it goes through your computer. that is the key issue for me. obviously waiting a few milliseconds from the time i hit play and the time i hear the music is not a big deal, as long as the input sound syncs to the recorded tracks.

Another good point you had was about softsynths. I was looking into gigasampler and a few others but thought it would be here where latency could be a very significant issue. when recording with these soft synths I would image that latency would through a wrench into the process. Even if you use 2 different computers - 1 for recording 1 for the synths -- you would still need to deal with the latency issue. Thanks again!
 
Not to beat a dead horse, but it might be worth mentioning that "latency" is always present in everything in the real world.

(In this illustration I'll pretend that the time it takes for the vibration of a guitar string to be turned into an electrical signal by the pickups, travel down the cable to the amp, and be amplified and sent out the speaker is negligible. I'll also neglect the time it takes for your ears to turn sound waves into nerve impulses, send them to your brain, and for your brain to respond).

If you stand with me on a bandstand four feet away from my guitar amp, your ears will pick up what I play in about 4 ms. If you are standing eight feet away, it'll take 8 ms. Obviously this "latency" has a pretty neglible effect on the tightness of our band.

It's only when the distance is great enough to causes a perceptible lag that it's a problem (try jamming with me from 100 yards away with a delay of almost 300 ms, almost a third of a second, and we'll see how tight we sound!)
 
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