What would make a good, economical set up from tape to pc?

I

IronWine

Member
Hey there
I use in my home studio the Tascam MS-16, together with the Tascam M-512(yes i wish it was the 520) and ampex 351 as mixdown tape.
Latley iv'e come to realization that i got to make some kind of hybrid set up down here (up untill now i took some tapes to a friend's studio, but that's too much of a hassle).

So i am looking for a good and economical Audio interface to transfer tape-recorded music to the digital domain
Some important points:

1. I want to be able to get the 16 tracks individually from the MS-16 to PC.
2.not necessarily important that 16 tracks will simultaneously go to PC (anyhow i got only 12 outs from the M-512)
3. to retain as much natural and tape-ish sound as possible
4. to get things back from PC to the Ampex and back (i will make a proper patchbay)
5. budget around 1k$, less is better, it's a home studio and i just started to get some paid jobs so with time i'll have better budget to get something better.

the set up i got in mind (or is there a more proper way?) :

Mics--->Tascam console input channels--(thru direct outs or busses)--->MS-16--->Audio interface in's --->PC --->Audio interface out --->Ampex 351 ----> PC


some products that came to mind:

Tascam US16X08 - hysterically cheap, only 8 outs, maybe good for start

Ferrofish 16 - on the far end side of my budget but got real good reviews, tho it is a pure converter therefor i will have to buy an additional adat-usb converter


Will be happy to hear from you guys

cheers!
 
Hi,
Basically you need something with 16 analog line ins and outs?
If I remember correctly my old Motu (828mk2) had 8 balanced line ins and outs, and adat to allow 8 more.
Coupling a used one of those with a budget 8in/8out adat converter wouldn't cost all that much.

My motu was firewire but they had a USB version. There's a mk3 too.

Not sure what's available in new products but maybe someone else can help there.
 
Allen & Heath ICE16 or Cymatic LR16 for a straight 16 channel input and output interface, no bells and whistles.

I use echo audiofire 12 which is similar but 12 channel I/O. I think the Allen and Heath and the Cymatic are both USB based while the Echo is FireWire.
 
I have an MSR16 with an M520 board.
I run the tape outputs directly into an Allen and Heath ICE 16. From the ICE I go into the board.
ICE unit is hooked into the PC via usb, and 16 tracks all at the same time are transfered to the daw. They're stored on an SSD usb drive as wav files.

My setup couldn't be easier. I can mix digital tracks in the box or on the console.

I'm not trying to plug this unit in particular, as I'm sure there are plenty of other units with 16 in and outs that will do what you want, It's just the setup I'm familiar with, and after a few years of using it, I have zero regrets.
:)
Edit:
You mentioned only having 12 inputs on your console. Yeah, more would be better, but.......the Ice dont care if you have 4 or 4 hundred inputs, or for that matter, even if you dont have a console.
It will still do its job and convert up to 16 analog sources to digital and get them into your daw.
Simultaneously importing ALL 16 tracks into you daw makes life much easier.

For me, I'm fortunate to have enough inputs on the 520 because I like to edit in the daw, and mix on the console.

As previously mentioned the ICE16 is no frills. It's a usb interface with 16 conveters.
No preamps. It records to your daw, a thumbdrive, or a usb ssd drive

They ran/run about a thousand bucks brand new, but I'm sure you could find one used for much less. Lots of people offload perfectly good gear chasing the dragon of the 'latest and greatest' (especially forum people) :)
 
Last edited:
If you just need lots of balanced analog I/O, the MOTU 24 I/O is 24 in TRS, 24 out TRS. Hooks up to a PCIe card in the computer.
 
FWIW, the Tascam 16x08 you mentioned has 8 mic/line and two line/instmt inputs on the front and 6 line inputs on the back. Going to the computer via USB you can choose all of the 16 channels to go to your DAW software at one time. All line inputs would be balanced, with 8 being XLR and 8 TRS.
 
You would want to transfer all 16 channels at once. I've tried going from analog tape to digital in several passes, it never works. The tape speed isn't as consistent as it needs to be to do that. There is always a bit of drift on each pass. You would also need to have a way to sync up all the passes... It's just worth it to get enough inputs to do it all in one pass.
 
RFR said:
I have an MSR16 with an M520 board.
I run the tape outputs directly into an Allen and Heath ICE 16. From the ICE I go into the board.
ICE unit is hooked into the PC via usb, and 16 tracks all at the same time are transfered to the daw. They're stored on an SSD usb drive as wav files.

My setup couldn't be easier. I can mix digital tracks in the box or on the console.

I'm not trying to plug this unit in particular, as I'm sure there are plenty of other units with 16 in and outs that will do what you want, It's just the setup I'm familiar with, and after a few years of using it, I have zero regrets.
:)
Edit:
You mentioned only having 12 inputs on your console. Yeah, more would be better, but.......the Ice dont care if you have 4 or 4 hundred inputs, or for that matter, even if you dont have a console.
It will still do its job and convert up to 16 analog sources to digital and get them into your daw.
Simultaneously importing ALL 16 tracks into you daw makes life much easier.

For me, I'm fortunate to have enough inputs on the 520 because I like to edit in the daw, and mix on the console.

As previously mentioned the ICE16 is no frills. It's a usb interface with 16 conveters.
No preamps. It records to your daw, a thumbdrive, or a usb ssd drive

They ran/run about a thousand bucks brand new, but I'm sure you could find one used for much less. Lots of people offload perfectly good gear chasing the dragon of the 'latest and greatest' (especially forum people) :)
Click to expand...



First off thanks everyone!
sure the ICE16 looks like the best option for me.

RFR, do you use the normal ICE16 version? the unbalanced version i mean.
From looking thru the manuals, the TASCAM MS16 output level is rated at -10DBV, while the ICE16 input level is 0DBu, is that a proper gain match? did you mod it in anyway?

thanks again
 
IronWine said:
First off thanks everyone!
sure the ICE16 looks like the best option for me.

RFR, do you use the normal ICE16 version? the unbalanced version i mean.
From looking thru the manuals, the TASCAM MS16 output level is rated at -10DBV, while the ICE16 input level is 0DBu, is that a proper gain match? did you mod it in anyway?

thanks again
Click to expand...

I do not have any of the above gear so I can only "fly on instruments"! I would be interested to hear how others sort out tape to AI levels.

As usual, specifications are not that hepful. The tape out is specified as '0dBu', is that at 0vu or -6VU? And cluck knows what TAPE FLUX they mean!

The ICE16 has a 'maximum input' of +20dBu. Can we assume that coressponds to 0dBfs? If so then the 0VU level out of the TR is going to be around -20 or -16dBfs. Rather low I would have thought?

My figures could be all over the shop. Old yer know.

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
The ICE16 has a 'maximum input' of +20dBu. Can we assume that coressponds to 0dBfs? If so then the 0VU level out of the TR is going to be around -20 or -16dBfs. Rather low I would have thought?
Click to expand...

That would be a perfect level in my book. While some people set 0VU to -14dBFS I find that there is a chance of overload with some tapes at that level so prefer to use 0VU=-18dBFS. With 24 bit recording it is far better to leave plenty of headroom. I believe from memory that the ICE16 is slightly noisier than some 24 bit convertors with noise at around -100dBFS but that will be ample dynamic range for any tape transfers.
 
RFR said:
I have an MSR16 with an M520 board.
I run the tape outputs directly into an Allen and Heath ICE 16. From the ICE I go into the board.
ICE unit is hooked into the PC via usb, and 16 tracks all at the same time are transfered to the daw. They're stored on an SSD usb drive as wav files.

My setup couldn't be easier. I can mix digital tracks in the box or on the console.

I'm not trying to plug this unit in particular, as I'm sure there are plenty of other units with 16 in and outs that will do what you want, It's just the setup I'm familiar with, and after a few years of using it, I have zero regrets.
:)
Edit:
You mentioned only having 12 inputs on your console. Yeah, more would be better, but.......the Ice dont care if you have 4 or 4 hundred inputs, or for that matter, even if you dont have a console.
It will still do its job and convert up to 16 analog sources to digital and get them into your daw.
Simultaneously importing ALL 16 tracks into you daw makes life much easier.

For me, I'm fortunate to have enough inputs on the 520 because I like to edit in the daw, and mix on the console.

As previously mentioned the ICE16 is no frills. It's a usb interface with 16 conveters.
No preamps. It records to your daw, a thumbdrive, or a usb ssd drive

They ran/run about a thousand bucks brand new, but I'm sure you could find one used for much less. Lots of people offload perfectly good gear chasing the dragon of the 'latest and greatest' (especially forum people) :)
Click to expand...

So it took me some time but at last i got hands on the ICE16D for a good price.
I do have some small technical question i'd be happy to ask you or anyone else here....

Actually i was on the hunt for the normal version, but then the balanced version popped up for 200$ so i grabbed it..
Inputs wise , the M512 got the same balanced amp XLR outputs that the M520 has, so it is a perfect match with XLR to D-SUB snake.

question 1: i came to know that the Tascam mixers XLR outputs are pin 3 hot rather then 2 - quote from an old tread:

"It is true that the M520 is pin3 hot - But It is a true differential output with both pin3 and pin2 driven. Both are hot with pin3 on the + phase and pin 2 on the - phase. Don't run it into anything that has either pin 3 or pin 2 grounded. If you need to do that use a line transformer ..."

according to the ICE16D manual (https://www.allen-heath.com/media/AP9216_2_ICE-16D_UserGuide_A5.pdf) - the inputs conforms AES59 standard. - does that mean that any ready-made snake will work regardless of the opposite pinout of the tascam?

question 2 i am still in doubt what will be the best wiring for the outputs of ICE16D back to the console.

option 1 is a D-SUB to rca snake, so that means loosing the balanced signal.

option 2 is using the mic inputs of the M512 input channels . Going thru the manual, there is nothing mentioned regarding driving these inputs with line level signal. I contacted A&H supports, they replied:"The signal going out of ICE will be a bit low so you will have to crank it up on the mixer channels.Final quality depends on how well you can manage the level differences. It's a matter of experimenting."

What in your opinions guys will give a better gain staging chain?

Thanks a lot!
 

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IronWine said:
I contacted A&H supports, they replied:"The signal going out of ICE will be a bit low so you will have to crank it up on the mixer channels.Final quality depends on how well you can manage the level differences. It's a matter of experimenting."
Click to expand...

I think something has got lost in translation here. The specs in the manual say that the ICE16D has a nominal output level of +4dBu and a maximum output level of +26dBU which is a very healthy level. I can't find a spec for the maximum input level for the mic inputs on the M512 but they're unlikely to be able to handle +26dBu without overloading. Probably the simplest way to use the mic inputs is to use a bunch of in-line attenuators like the one at

https://cpc.farnell.com/pro-signal/psg02973/attenuator-adaptor-20db-xlr/dp/AV17579
 
What's your planned workflow? I assume you're going to do all your tracking, overdubs, punches etc. on tape. But then will you mix ITB then capture the mix on the Ampex? Or are you going to mix in analog? Since the M-512 direct outs and tape ins are on RCA, aren't they a bit low to tape? They might also be lower than you want to the ICE-16D.

The M-512 has polarity switches so you can just switch all those and you've made the inputs pin-2 hot. But on a device that's pin-3 hot on input and output the net effect is neutral. What goes in on pin-2 comes out on pin-2 so it preserves the polarity of the signal. If you're just using XLR. Going in on XLR and out on RCA might result in a polarity flip. But you've got the switches on the inputs, plus it's super easy to flip polarity in software. I wouldn't worry about polarity. Just be consistent.

The mic inputs on the M-512 have 30dB pads plus gain control. I think they'll accommodate whatever signal you send them.

But aren't you planning on going from the MS-16 straight to the interface? In that case I think you'll want XLR snakes for in and out of the interface. The ICE 16D takes +26dBu signal so I don't think anything is going to overload its inputs. If you're going to mix ITB and capture on the Ampex it might be more convenient to get a good quality 2-channel interface.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
What's your planned workflow? I assume you're going to do all your tracking, overdubs, punches etc. on tape. But then will you mix ITB then capture the mix on the Ampex? Or are you going to mix in analog? Since the M-512 direct outs and tape ins are on RCA, aren't they a bit low to tape? They might also be lower than you want to the ICE-16D.

The M-512 has polarity switches so you can just switch all those and you've made the inputs pin-2 hot. But on a device that's pin-3 hot on input and output the net effect is neutral. What goes in on pin-2 comes out on pin-2 so it preserves the polarity of the signal. If you're just using XLR. Going in on XLR and out on RCA might result in a polarity flip. But you've got the switches on the inputs, plus it's super easy to flip polarity in software. I wouldn't worry about polarity. Just be consistent.

The mic inputs on the M-512 have 30dB pads plus gain control. I think they'll accommodate whatever signal you send them.

But aren't you planning on going from the MS-16 straight to the interface? In that case I think you'll want XLR snakes for in and out of the interface. The ICE 16D takes +26dBu signal so I don't think anything is going to overload its inputs. If you're going to mix ITB and capture on the Ampex it might be more convenient to get a good quality 2-channel interface.
Click to expand...


first off thank guys for your replies :)
jamesperrett - the M512 got -30db pads , i bet they will have the same effect as your suggested attenuators?


So to begin with, my MS-16 is currently out of order, some fuses had blown, my technician reckons the power supply failed. I lately decided that i will part with this machine sometime soon, as the one i got had a rough life, and it's impossible to take it out for service. Add the expensive 1" tape, i got the reasons to downsize for an 8-track. That's another discussion tho.

So my current set-up instead of the MS-16 (untill i'll put my hand on an 48/58 machine) is the Tascam 238. Meaning unbalanced I/O.


Regarding the M-512 RCA's direct outs and tape ins, i don't think of it as an issue. Tascam made rca king during the 80', it is a simple, reliable connector. never encountered problems with it. Actually A&H support also wrote me :"The XLR in's expects a lower level signal than the RCA level. You will find signal coming in to the ICE is a bit hot"

The workflow is really the big question i was pondering over. I guess tracking/overdub on the 238, then editing ITB, and then mixing both ITB and analog sounds about right. The 351 as a final mixdown tape . The more flexible the setup will be - the better.

My instinct tells me (and i'd love to hear your perspective) that if i will manage the incoming/outcoming signal to PC and back as balanced signal i will get the best results. So to my opinion, using a D-SUB TO XLR into the M-512 mic in's is a better path than a D-SUB TO RCA into the m-512 tape/line in's. Just not sure how the M-512 mic preamps will cope - is it just a matter of attenuating the line level signal?
 
I have long lost track of what is going to what and what is going in the skip!

Re the Tascam 238 RCA outs? I would strongly suggest a 'breakout box' 8 RCA (don't cheap out! Gold ones with individual PTFE insulating washers) skts and 8 TRS jacks wired with a 100 Ohm resistor to 'pseudo' balance the outputs. The system should IMHO be 'rationalized' on TRS jacks. Carry the signals through the box without any grounds going to the metalwork and ground the box with a separate wire, preff to mains earth but the casing of a PC will usually serve.

You might still run into ground loop problems and the only satisfactory solution is transformers. You could however get away with some $5. jobs from OEP Walter (will find you the pt#) for neg ten signal levels and tape.

WRto the mixer. Should cope with just about any signal you chuck at it?

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
I have long lost track of what is going to what and what is going in the skip!

Re the Tascam 238 RCA outs? I would strongly suggest a 'breakout box' 8 RCA (don't cheap out! Gold ones with individual PTFE insulating washers) skts and 8 TRS jacks wired with a 100 Ohm resistor to 'pseudo' balance the outputs. The system should IMHO be 'rationalized' on TRS jacks. Carry the signals through the box without any grounds going to the metalwork and ground the box with a separate wire, preff to mains earth but the casing of a PC will usually serve.

You might still run into ground loop problems and the only satisfactory solution is transformers. You could however get away with some $5. jobs from OEP Walter (will find you the pt#) for neg ten signal levels and tape.

WRto the mixer. Should cope with just about any signal you chuck at it?

Dave.
Click to expand...
Hey Dave. that indeed was the case if i had to regular version of the A&H ICE16 , but the one i bought is the balanced version. as the 238 lacks balanced i/o , i'm thinking of wiring it thru the mixer as i described
 
IronWine said:
Hey Dave. that indeed was the case if i had to regular version of the A&H ICE16 , but the one i bought is the balanced version. as the 238 lacks balanced i/o , i'm thinking of wiring it thru the mixer as i described
Click to expand...

Right, ok but you might get ground loops anyway that route. I have found from the manual that the 238 has an output Z of 100 Ohms so pseudo balanced outs can be accurately made.

I will have another look at the manual but does the mixer have direct outs? Inserts maybe but they can be a bit of a faff.

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
Right, ok but you might get ground loops anyway that route. I have found from the manual that the 238 has an output Z of 100 Ohms so pseudo balanced outs can be accurately made.

I will have another look at the manual but does the mixer have direct outs? Inserts maybe but they can be a bit of a faff.

Dave.
Click to expand...

What do you mean by pseudo balanced out?

Yes the mixer does have (unbalanced) direct outs. Actually, the only balanced out's/in's the M512 has are the (12) mic preamps inputs and the (8) balanced amp outputs - which every unbalanced output on the mixer can be routed to it.

It's very much an issue of workflow rather then anything else i see.
For tracking i think i am going to stay in analog.same for basic mix .
For editing i'm gonna need to take it to PC. then back for mixdown.
 
IronWine said:
What do you mean by pseudo balanced out?
Click to expand...

Use a 2 core plus screen cable (ie a microphone cable) from your unbalanced output to balanced input.

The signal from the unbalanced output goes to the hot on the balanced input.
The screen from the unbalanced output may go to the screen (or XLR pin 1) on the balanced input or it may be left disconnected at the unbalanced output end - depending on the problem that you are trying to solve.
The cold on the balanced input is connected to the screen of the unbalanced output via a resistor of the same value as the output impedance of the unbalanced output (often around 100 ohms) at the unbalanced output end of the cable.

Q. Is there a better balanced-to-unbalanced cabling solution?

Explains a bit more about it.
 
Sorry, I actually meant an IMPEDANCE balanced output (old y'know and on meds) see...
impedance balanced output wiring diagram - Google Search

Since you know the source 'impedance' really a physical resistor most likely, you can put the same value in the pin 3 to earthy path.

There are swings and roundabouts to both systems. Pseudo gives good protection from ground loops but can be open to RFI. Impedance balance keeps the screen intact both ends. Would be needed for instance if phantom power was being used.

Transformers give both good ground loop protection and can give the very best RFI protection especially if good quality output traffs are used with 10k bridging transformers at the input end. They will of course be expensive if the very best sound quality is to be preserved.

Dave.
 
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