What counts

sweetbeats

sweetbeats

Reel deep thoughts...
You can talk gear all day long...all year long.

You can debate gear hierarchy...

You can suppose what you need.

You can refurbishtweaktinker

But there is nothing like tracking something to bring you back to reality; to tell you what is actually useful; to take your little comfort zone of confidence in your suppositions and put it to trial; to present to you, leaving no room for debate, what really counts in your studio.

Tracking session tonight...

I am exhausted.

We were just grabbing vocal/piano scratch tracks tonight for the rest of the ensemble.

The female vocalist has a great voice but something about where the vocal cut sits in her voice totally put my system/limited knowledge to the test.

No analog recorders ready yet so this was to hard disk, but this is the analog-only forum so to keep it real I will have you know I depended on my vintage Tascam gear. :p

The signal path started out as a Studio Projects C1 > Presonus Digimax FS preamp with ART TCS compressor inserted. Sounded terrible...harsh and grainy. Tried it without the compressor...same thing. I've been really happy with the Digimax in the past.

So we tried a Studio Projects B3 in polar pattern. Same problem...this buzzy harsh quality at around 4kHz...same thing I have so much trouble with a lot of contemporary music...can't hear past it...maybe its a problem with my ears but the vocalist heard it too.

So then we tried B3 > Stewart Audio phantom supply > Tascam MX-80 > Digimax FS line in...no better...switch back to C1. No better, and to make matters worse the trim pots on the MX-80 were unacceptably scratchy.

So I power up the Tascam M-520 and run the C1 direct to that with the compressor. Its better, but we're not happy yet. I try the B3 again, and I try pulling the compressor out of the chain. I start experimenting with the eq on the M-520. Some help, but I'm needing a more surgical solution.

Realizing that the C1 and B3 use the same element I try a 57...not it. Then I pull out the Audix D-6...a kick drum mic. Sounds best yet and I'm running out of options so we go with it. So now the signal path is Audix D-6 > Tascam M-520 with compressor and Tascam PE-40 eq inserted > Yamaha i88x line in. M-520 eq is out, compressor is dialed in to an optical vocal preset, and I've set it to about 2:1 and the attack and release are set so the gain reduction VU dances with her voice. Max gain reduction at about -5, and there is a de-essing filter and tube filter in the compressor circuit. The PE-40 is set to a medium band conservative cut at about 400Hz, relatively narrow deep cut at 4kHz, and a wide-band minor boost centered around 12kHz...the 60Hz HPF is also switched in. I don't like that much eq'ing, but it was pretty much necessary to my (and her) ears.

The mp3 has only been normalized and, other than a dithering plugin, no other processing was applied.

So anyway, all comments welcome. We're still not totally happy yet, and it wouldn't be a big deal (since these are just scratch tracks for drums, bass and guitar), but we're kind of taking this opportunity to learn ahead of time how we'll want to approach the signal path for final tracking.

What counts...not a bunch options, but something that works...not something with super bright blue LED's, but analog VU's...not the LDC vocal mic that you were sure was the mic, but a kick drum mic... :rolleyes::eek::o

Good news is the vocalist is drawn to the idea of using the reel-to-reel for final tracking. ;)
 
those Studio Projects mics tend to be bright and harsh, as do many of the low priced condensors... I have a C3, it helps to keep the vocalist backed a little further off the mic, although I find that I am using an SM58 on more and more vocalists. Recently tried my Oktava MK12 on vocals for the first time, and it wasn't bad either.

I think my next mic purchase will be something along the lines of an RE20 or some other better dynamic. I'll never be able to afford a high end condensor, but I think something like an RE20 would serve me pretty well, not only on vox, but elec guitar, drums etc...
 
Hi_Flyer,

Thank for the input. Did you happen to listen to the mp3?

We tried positioning the C1 and B3 mics obliquely, and we tried a number of distances as well from 4~5" to maybe 12". The further out we got the worse it seemed to get as we lost the depth which enhanced that bite at around 4kHz...I recently recorded my friend on vocal and acoustic guitar with a pair of the B3's in an M+S configuration from about 3~4 feet back and it came out sounding great to my ears...I was really pleased, but I'm really struggling with this current client.

I concluded last night that a dynamic mic might fit better which led me to the 57 and then the D-6 and its interesting that you mention the RE-20 because that has always had an allure for me...I've heard really great things about it and I've been impressed with work I've listened to using that mic. I've also had my eye on Sennheiser's MD421 over the years.

See???? There I go again!!!...making suppositions about what gear I need...:mad:...I just know it wasn't working last night. But I guess that was really my original point to make with this thread; that, for anybody else like me, at some point you've either got to poop or get off the potty and you might just find yourself with gear you thought you needed but it isn't "all that".
 
Sweet,
Glad your finally doing some tracking :) I listened to the mp3 and I would say this singer certainly has somewhat of an edge to her voice. Especially being that you recorded with those eq cuts in....you would think that would tame it. I'm not familar with the D6 but a lot of kick mic's have a little bump up there around 2k to get some beater snap. Wonder if that could be working against you ? Hi flyers suggestion on the RE20 is probably a good choice as well as a Shure SM7 might be. A good ribbon might work well with her voice too if you have one to try. The warmer the better :) Honestly I hear some pitchy-ness with her voice which to me was more annoying then the edge. Make sure she is relaxed and give her a nice sweet cue mix :) Good Luck, Dave
 
Dave,

Thank you so much for the comments/suggestions. :)

Yeah, you're right about the response curve on the D-6...I knew I would have to fight the high-mid rise but the LDC's sounded so brittle...hm...

My mic selections are limited...no ribbons :o

  • Studio Projects C1
  • Studio Projects B3 (x2)
  • Shure SM57 (x3)
  • Shure SM94
  • Audix D-6
  • AKG D112

Regarding the pitchy-ness, yeah...:D She's nervous. Never been recorded before...knew literally nothing about the process before we started so lots of new things for her, but I have to say she's dealing really well with all of it. She's high-school age too which is a rough age for a lot of young people relative to self-confidence and such. I'll work with the cue mix. I think she's holding back a bit which may be mix related. I have to do a lot of fishing to find out how things are in the cans for her. I think some things will work themselves out as we go, plus I've rounded up some quality gents as a studio band and I think that will help to drive her when we re-track and she has an instrumental foundation to stand on.

Wow...lots to consider...It would help if I had the M-520 fully connected...right now it is just serving as single-channel pre because I wasn't sure if it would be ready for this project, so the patch bays and all the virtual routing on the computer were setup using the Yamaha 01X for everything, and it is limited on monitoring. I think one thing I'll do before the next session is get the M-520 hooked up as the central hub in the studio so I can easily solo the cue mix.

How do you utilize effects in cue mixes? I kind of wondered if some reverb in her mix would help her to lose herself in the music a little better, and she's not going to know to ask.

I think the other thing is that she's forced to play that horrible digital piano. Its got a good feel but the sound is terrible.

Hm...

Hm, hm, hm...
 
You might give the mxl v67 a shot also. 100.00 Istnt bad and I like mine.
One thing I use to do with a girl that was a little shy was to not let everyone including myself was to not look at her while tracking. Act like its everyday crap going on in the control room. If thats possible. But dont sit there and stair out the window at her. I watch the machine or the board.
And if a second take is needed alot of the times I would blame it on me. I would say I had the levels a little to low or high some story like that.
 
My control room has a really cool feature...no window. :p

Thanks, Herm. I appreciate the suggestions.

v67...hm
 
Do you have baffles (foam, blankets, etc.) up right behind the mic? That helps take all of the room reflections out. Kids can be hard to get a performance out of (you cant give them a drink to loosen them up). Sometimes it helps them to bring a friend. One of my last sesions with a teen girl brought her sister.
 
try the sm57 with a plopfilter up close and a condenser a few feet back pointing at her forehead. blend those signals and eq if nescesary. (or maybe she's just not ready?) You should be able to record well with the mics you have i think...
 
Do you have baffles (foam, blankets, etc.) up right behind the mic?
Click to expand...

I wondered about that...about another foot behind the mic is just visqueen, and then open to the rest of the room. I'm not having trouble with room bleed, just that harshness...wondered if that visqueen might be augmenting the issue...?
 
The baffles stop the reflections that can create harshness. I never record vocals without one (I use auralex). It make the vocals more present.
 
try the sm57 with a plopfilter up close and a condenser a few feet back pointing at her forehead. blend those signals and eq if nescesary. (or maybe she's just not ready?) You should be able to record well with the mics you have i think...
Click to expand...

We did the SM57 up close with the pop filter, but not with the condenser too. I'll try that! The 57 gave me the warmth and body, but was naturally lacking in the air and definition. I might try the SM94 for the condenser...I've really liked that mic for lots of different applications...very true, smooth and detailed, but I didn't feel it would work well for close mic'ed vocal (probably should have tried it...:o)

I think she's ready, we're just trying to find a cadence and its new...Plus her voice has that 4kHz bite even acoustically...It'll be nice in post because I know I won't have to fight to get her prominent in the mix like I've had at times in the past, but I also don't want to fight the harshness in post like when a mastering compressor gets applied. She has enough confidence to build on but, to be honest, I don't think it helped that I had to keep trying different stuff...y'know, like "what's wrong...is it something about my voice?" That sort of thing, plus it got pretty late...the contacts were sticking :rolleyes:. But she's confident enough that when I'd tell her it was my issue (ala Herm :D) she'd rightfully buy it. I've dealt with vocal challenges when its too nasally or too sibilant, but this is a first for me.

Thank you so much for the ideas and encouragement everybody. I really want to avoid leaping to the "new piece of gear" solution that I have gone to all too often in the past.
 
The baffles stop the reflections that can create harshness. I never record vocals without one (I use auralex). It make the vocals more present.
Click to expand...

Cool. I'll try it. I always think of baffles to reduce reflections to capture a more dry sound, but if local reflections can present as harshness, that would definitely be an issue here.
 
I'm also hearing a buzzing / harshness in the mp3.... but I don't think it has to do with resonance in the room or at least not a major part of it.

There is something in the signal chain which is doing it and / or accentuating the girl's rather unique mid-high register. I personally would zero all the EQ on your mixer, put everything to neutral, actually unplug the compressor too and go direct in with each mic and see what happens.

Yeah, she definitely needs to hear reverb while monitoring and also how it would sound as a finished product. This way she'll feel more confident while recording.

Tell her what she wants in her mix like if more piano or less, more / less reverb here or there etc........

I dunno, just my opinion.....

--
 
I'll definitely have to bookmark this thread.;) I haven't even finished putting a studio together yet, but this looks to be some very useful info for future reference.:cool:
 
I personally would zero all the EQ on your mixer, put everything to neutral, actually unplug the compressor too and go direct in with each mic and see what happens.
Click to expand...



Hey Daniel my friend,

The trick is that I did just that...bypassed the compressor (its a hard-wire bypass), bypassed the eq (the PE-40...which is also a hardwire bypass), the eq is off on the M-520, and even with that and different mics and pre's and converters going into the computer it is always there...least prominent with the D-6, but still there.

I'm telling you though, guys, even when you stand next to her when she sings you can hear it direct from the source, so... :???:

There is one common element though that I didn't switch out...the cable...the mic cable. I'm using my best cables which are :o about 20 year old Pro-Co cables. I'm going to try a different one and see.

So that's my plan next:

  • Swap out the cable
  • baffle behind the mic
  • Bypass the eq
  • Try a dual mic setup and try to get the right response by varying the the distance between the two mics and try to comb filter to taste

I've already given her a heads-up about this.

Really, the 57 was the smoothest, but lacked air and definition...the dual mic thing might work out really well because the 57 will pick up the body and power, and the sensitive condenser distanced will hopefully get the air and definition without the bite.

We'll see, but this is really valuable to get ideas to try.

Thank ya fellas!
 
sweetbeats said:
when you stand next to her when she sings you can hear it direct from the source, so... :???:
Click to expand...


OK, that may be your answer right there. I mean, the mic is picking up [and perhaps accentuating] the girl's frequencies, the 'harsh' ones....

As a result I think I would opt to record that same sound you're getting with your own ear, 'cause that's how she sounds. I dunno, maybe pick the most neutral sounding mic and try to equalize it so that it has the most flattest response and try to pick her up on that?

I mean there's no getting away with the fact that, like it or not, that's how she sounds and your only option, IMHO, would be to record her consistent with that fact and focus rather on performance and getting a good mix out of it.

Yes, no.. ? :confused:

--
 
Sweet,
Lots of good suggestions so far :) In regard to the cue mix...especially if the vocalist is inexperienced. Try and find a level they are most comfortable at. You can ask her if she would like to hear more or less of her voice as well as more or less of the instruments but being inexpeienced she may not know what would be best for her. Try listening to her singing in the room, stand near her as she sings. Does she sound like she is pushing too hard (give her more voice or less instruments in the cans). Is she singing very soft because she is hearing her self too loud? (Give her less of herself in the cans) You might try panning everything in the cans to one side, have her remove the headphone on the other side and see if she performs better that way. It helps with some singers. With young talent you definitly have to be a part time cheer leader... (keep their confidence up):) Most singers do like some sweetness in the cans, a little reverb, maybe even a little delay. It depends on the singer but it's something you can try. I remember one vocalist I was recording sang fine in the room not listening through headphones but as soon as the headphones went on they would get pitchy. The one ear headphone thing worked. The only thing I put in the one can was just the backing tracks and let them monitor their voice naturally with their other ear. Stay positive, smile a lot, remind her to just relax and have fun often too :) Good Luck, Dave
 
hilltop studios said:
I remember one vocalist I was recording sang fine in the room not listening through headphones but as soon as the headphones went on they would get pitchy. The one ear headphone thing worked. The only thing I put in the one can was just the backing tracks and let them monitor their voice naturally with their other ear.
Click to expand...

Dave, good advice and the above sounds exactly like me a few years back. Was able to sing fine without headphones but the minute the cans went on, I went pitchy and the nervousness crept in .... I did eventually do the one ear headphone thing and it worked well but I have a follow-up question... As you're monitoring yourself with your other ear, how would you suggest the vocalist stays consistent with the levels on the recorder? Do I stay in one place about 10inches away and do I look at the meter bounce when I'm singing [and adjust level as necessary?], as I obviously don't monitor my voice via phones but rather with the other ear?
 
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