Using a tape machine to warm up drum tracks

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pappy999

New member
I know this has probably been discussed before but the search function is not working right now.....

I am thinking of buying an eight-track tape machine to use in my signal chain going into pro tools. I want to see if this will warm up my drum tracks.

What machine in the $-500 range would be best for my needs? I want something that is simple to use and find tape for.

Does anyone else have any experience doing what I described?

Phil
 
Tascam 38 would be alright. Track width is almost the same as on 24-track 2" machines. It runs 1/2" tape. RMGI SM911 or SM468 1/2" tape would be best to use, it's still in production and is probably best quality. Check tapes.com

The recorder by itself would cost you somewhere between $350-$400, and you can buy a couple of new tapes for $100 (1 hour of recording).

I'd recommend recording on tape first and only then transferring to Pro tools.
By the way, why only drum tracks?

T-38.JPG
 
Does the tascam 38 have direct outs?

I want to start with the drum tracks and see what I come up with. If I get some good results, I will run overdubs throught the tape machine too. If I put the tascam in my signal chain, does it have to be running tape to get a sound out of it? I was thinking in case I want to bypass the tape machine sometimes and go directly into my mixer.
 
pappy999 said:
Does the tascam 38 have direct outs?

I want to start with the drum tracks and see what I come up with. If I get some good results, I will run overdubs throught the tape machine too. If I put the tascam in my signal chain, does it have to be running tape to get a sound out of it? I was thinking in case I want to bypass the tape machine sometimes and go directly into my mixer.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure if I understand what you mean, what do you want to run the Tascam into? What is in your signal chain right now?

Are you planning on recording on drums on tape, then dumping them into protools? Or the other way around?
 
The 38 has 8 inputs & 8 outputs.

To get any tape effect, you must record to and read off of tape.

To do this in (almost) real time, you may use the Repro head to monitor off tape. However, there will be that slight delay, due to the physical spacing of the tape heads and the 15ips tape travel. The input signal is printed thru the Sync head and read off the Repro head a split second later.

You may also do it in two different sessions, of record/rewind/playback, and achieve the same results.

Passing the signal thru the Input/Outputs while in Sync mode will not achieve the desired effect. You must print to tape. :eek: ;)
 
pappy999 said:
Does the tascam 38 have direct outs?
Click to expand...
Yes.
pappy999 said:
If I put the tascam in my signal chain, does it have to be running tape to get a sound out of it? I was thinking in case I want to bypass the tape machine sometimes and go directly into my mixer.
Click to expand...

Well, yeah, you will have the signal coming out of the 8 line outs, and you will see the signal going into the line ins on the VU meters. You don't have to be recording just to hear the sound.
 
A Reel Person said:
Passing the signal thru the Input/Outputs while in Sync mode will not achieve the desired effect. You must print to tape. :eek: ;)
Click to expand...

I think he meant he's not always going to record and doesn't want to disconnect the unit from the chain
 
Everytime I see a nice machine like that on eBay, I shudder at the thought of it being shipped! :eek:
 
A Reel Person is right, though. If you want that tape sound, you have to record to and then play back from tape. Just running your signals through the deck itself won't impart that tape sound.
 
cjacek said:
Everytime I see a nice machine like that on eBay, I shudder at the thought of it being shipped! :eek:
Click to expand...

Yeah... I was lucky to pick one up in Ottawa for half that price.
 
How much latency should I expect? Will it be enough that an average musician will notice and have problems playing to, say, a drum track running through tape?
Here is my proposed signal chain:

Mic-Mackie 8bus Direct out-Tape machine-A/D converter

When recording drums, should I try to saturate the tape signal with every drum hit? I am just trying to get an idea how to use this machine with my set-up. Plus, I just want an excuse to begin a new hobby!
 
pappy999 said:
How much latency should I expect? Will it be enough that an average musician will notice and have problems playing to, say, a drum track running through tape?
Here is my proposed signal chain:

Mic-Mackie 8bus Direct out-Tape machine-A/D converter

When recording drums, should I try to saturate the tape signal with every drum hit? I am just trying to get an idea how to use this machine with my set-up. Plus, I just want an excuse to begin a new hobby!
Click to expand...

There really won't be any latency if you're doing overdubs on the tape machine, it doesn't have the same problems computer recorders have.

How much you want to saturate, if at all, is up to you. Pushing the snare into the red can be great, so long as it isn't overkill. The kick can have some interesting effects with that, too. Avoid pushing any room mics or cymbal mics too hard, as you'll lose the highs. One thing you'll notice on analog recording is that the cymbals will sound better than you've ever heard them sound recorded before.

As for your signal chain, that should work, but keep in mind a few things:

1- It's not possible to sync up the 8 track and the computer (unless you're willing to spend a fair amount of time and money)

2- If you plan on mixing the drum tracks inside the computer, make sure you have at least an 8 input sound card, otherwise you'll end up running into issue #1.

3- You would need at least 1 rough instrument track for overdubs for later. So, this would limit you to 7 tracks in analog for the drums.

4- Rather than mix in the computer, you may want to make your drum mix in the analog realm, then mix down just two tracks into the computer if you don't have all the necessary hardware.

Many people who are new to analog get confused and think that they'll be able to run one or two tracks at a time into the computer from their tape machine. The problem with this is there are inherent synchronization issues.

Good luck!
-MD
 
Another option, which I've done with good results is to slave your computer to the 38 using a synchman type box with a smpte stripe. It'll leave you with seven tracks. You can throw scratch tracks down on the digital side and lay your drum tracks in sync on the 38 and easily transfer them over to your computer.
 
I think I am going to try it first running directly into the converter. When I record a band, I use up to 20 tracks at once. To sync up drum parts with the other parts after the fact will be complicated.

Now the question is: where can I find a decent tape machine? I should have grabbed that 38 off ebay tonight!
 
pappy999 said:
I think I am going to try it first running directly into the converter. When I record a band, I use up to 20 tracks at once. To sync up drum parts with the other parts after the fact will be complicated.

Now the question is: where can I find a decent tape machine? I should have grabbed that 38 off ebay tonight!
Click to expand...

Check ebay every 5 days or so, it pops up from time to time. If you check at any stores, the price goes up to 900-1000 sometimes, but that's way too much for a 38 IMO, and is an okay price for Tascam TSR-8 with its syncing add-ons. Here's a list of questions to ask the seller: how is it going to be shipped? (it's very heavy, and if it falls on its face the shaft is bent and you don't have the reels turning propeprly...tell the buyer to read this thread here https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=202522&highlight=packing+project ) another question would be on heads, how much wear, etc, ask for pictures...you might also ask if it needs to be re-calibrated.
 
Thanks for posting my link DK :)

Since then I've slightly modified my thinking about this and would add that now I only recommend getting anything heavy shipped using a custom crate, forklifted and shipped via freight, truck etc ..... The packing showcase at that link would truthfully not protect 100% against a really long fall such as from 6 feet up. This is more for bracing and protecting the item from stuff falling onto it and placing that on a pallet. There really needs to be more "GIVE" in the packing, for shipping it via the typical way where a lot of conveyor belts and throwing and falling goes on. The item, in this case the heavy recorder, when dropped in its box, cannot just hit a brick wall. The packaging needs to give way and sag for a while before stopping the item in its tracks. That way it'll absorb the shock, the packing that is. If a recorder is packed in styrofoam only then not a lot of GIVE happens. Enough to minimize damage but still not good enough. The packaging example, even less would be fine, is for shipping on a pallet and / or crate and not really via the standard route.
 
_DK said:
Check ebay every 5 days or so, it pops up from time to time. If you check at any stores, the price goes up to 900-1000 sometimes, but that's way too much for a 38 IMO, and is an okay price for Tascam TSR-8 with its syncing add-ons.
Click to expand...
The TSR-8 only has a single audio head so it can't be used as an effect. You'd have to track the drums to it and then replay the tape to dump them into the DAW.
 
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