TASCAM M3500....just picked one up!

Hi Guys,

Well progress on the mixer front....kind of two steps forward, one step back.

Delving deeper into the mixer, there are some things that are great (the quasi modular construction) and some things that are a PITA (the design of the MASTER section seems 'Ad Hoc'....as if the design team were running out of time). I presume lots of the restrictions were down to designing two mixers in the footprint of one. There is a large hole in the top right of the mixer where the automation facilities of the M3700 must sit.. My gripes with the MASTER section is that it seems like an accident waiting to happen with all its separate wiring and necessitating the removal of lots of small wires to investigate any problems that might occur. I suppose, these things are all built to a price, but I think the design could have been improved by the use of ribbon cables which would terminate further down the rear of the desk to branch out then to the rear connectors. As it is, it is a bunch of spaghetti with no markings on the boards themselves as to which connectors go where (this would of cost practically nothing).

I am of course trying to excuse my own stupidity as I connected a two pin wire that was carrying the +8v and ground, to the Group 8 fader out, a thing that you would think hard to do. Not when you see the layout of the boards and see that some Group outs are (1-6) are hard wired onto three separate boards, Group7 out is at the front of another board and Group8 is at the rear of another board. The +8V lead from the rear of the mixer (a separate wire by itself) fits an inch way from the Group 8 fader (on a separate board with no markings on either cable or board to show its a power supply and not an audio connector). When you're having to hold the whole module in one hand, while re-plugging the leads (mainly audio outputs at the rear, about 20 of them and the 10 fader cables at the front) making sure you don't damage the three buss connectors with the whole master panel having to be manoeuvred (maneuvered) to enable the leads to be fitted.....as I said, it's a PITA.

Griping over, where am I?

Well, I think the initial problem I had (the outputs suddenly disappearing and replaced by hiss) may have been down to power supply. I've recapped it and it seems to be providing steady power now (I don't know how to check what you said Cory....scope the rails?...could you elaborate?). I replaced a ton of caps in the eight master boards....some so low you wonder how anything still worked. I re-soldered all the tiny fader boards that act as connectors between the Master Panel and the Output faders as some were loose. I re-soldered the headphone out and lead as it had been wired incorrectly.

I've re-connected things and now I have the following.
The SIP (Solo-in-Place) facility works as it should with PFL and SIP available. The AUXES all seem ok. The biggest thing to sort out now is that I have no signal either metering on the GROUP2 and GROUP3 busses and the MASTER R. I've checked it's not an insert problem, but I'm at a bit of a loss on how to check other things. I did have the Control Panel connected just with the three buss ribbons and the baseplate. This allowed you to put just one of the eight boards on the baseplate, power on the mixer and check various things. I did check the ICs of the MASTER stage (JRC4580Ds if memory serves me right). I found voltage at the correct pin but I think I'm mis-interpreting the diagrams. Maybe a day off the mixer will allow my brain time for all this gunk to make sense.

As it is, I think I might have tried fixing twenty years of neglect in two weeks.........I'm now thinking a longer time-span to sort out what I want to sort out. After I get the Master Panel sorted, I'm going to tackle re-capping the INPUT modules 25-32 which house the GROUP submixes to the Master L/R as GROUP1 fader on CH25 still gurgles and bubbles. No doubt the others will benefit too.

On the MIC pre, on one of the malfunctioning channels, I noticed a 470uF cap that was well under spec. This was a 'non-polar' cap (470uF N.P). I read that it should only be replaced with the same non polar........is that true?

I think that's it for now....sorry about the long post.

Al
 
Ha! No reason to apologize for a long post. We love that stuff around here :)

When I first took apart my M3500 and M3700 I made a spreadsheet of all the wire destinations, cut them out individually (It looked like confetti...), and taped them to the wire itself. It took ages but saved me a lot of work and guessing. As I recall the wire itself has a plastic connector that is the same color as the connector that receives it on the board?

No matter what though, by the time you get from one side to the other, my back would be killing me from being hunched over..

Keep up the good work.. and don't hesitate to add some pictures :)
 
Love reading this stuff, my M3700 still runs perfect, mostly due to the fact I am the only owner and have looked after it. I suppose also that it has only ever been moved twice since I got it.

However I am planing a complete overhaul sometime soon if I can get a month of no bookings at some point.

Alan.
 
Love reading this stuff, my M3700 still runs perfect, mostly due to the fact I am the only owner and have looked after it. I suppose also that it has only ever been moved twice since I got it.

Yeah...same here with my 3500...25 years old, and still running, never any issues.
I moved it once, kept it clean, and always ran it off voltage regulated studio power.
 

Love reading this stuff, my M3700 still runs perfect, mostly due to the fact I am the only owner and have looked after it. I suppose also that it has only ever been moved twice since I got it.
Witzendoz

Yeah...same here with my 3500...25 years old, and still running, never any issues.
I moved it once, kept it clean, and always ran it off voltage regulated studio power.
Miroslav

I have only one thing to say to you two............

YOU LUCKY SODS!:D

Don't worry......I'll get there.....and boy, she does look sexy!

Al
 
Well another day on the mixer and I think she's nearly there.

If anyone tackles one of these babies in the future, then the one bit of advice I would give them is think about replacing the fader leads which attach through a small PCB to the MASTER CONTROL PANEL. Everytime the faders get unplugged (ie. everytime the panel is looked at) then the chances of them not connecting well in the future is increased. I think some of my intermittent problems with the groups have been because of this. I've just ordered some Molex connectors this evening. When they arrive, I plan to run new wire for each group fader and solder it straight to the MASTER CONTROL PCBs. On the other end of these wires, I'll solder a Molex socket and fit a short length to the faders with the Molex housing on. If I need to remove the panel again, I can just unplug the faders and remove the panel as is. It will cut down on at least one connector and hopefully the connectors I've bought will be a little more robust than the horrible tiny ones on the M3500 at present.

The problem I found with the MASTER R buss, was that when I re-capped the PCB, the ring eyelet must have come away and the track was no longer making contact. I ran a new length of wire between the points and it worked straight away.

I'm feeling a lot more confident with the mixer now, especially as the schematics are beginning to make a little more sense.

So fingers crossed, I might be seeing light at the end of the tunnel.

Once I get the new Molex installed I'll pload some pics of the desk and the repairs.

Cheers to all those who have chimed in and helped me get this far.

Al
 
Interesting point about the leads to the faders.

On my M3500, there is a lead from the channel strip that connects to a small circuit board that divides the channel bucket from the fader bucket. There is then a second lead, this time coming from the fader, that connects to that same board. There are 40 of these tiny boards, some with two sets of connectors, but most with one set.

On my M3700 there is only one lead. It connects from the channel strip to a molex connector on the fader. It's the same three wire cable and connector. The faders on the M3700 are, of course, far more complex, since it has VCAs and other automation components, but all of that is managed by large ribbon cables under the fader packs.

In all of my fader efforts I've never had trouble with the tiny molex connectors, though I too have had to re-solder one or two of ring eyelets on the fader itself.

I'm glad to hear you've moving forward. I can't wait to see and HEAR the end result.

Robert
 
I spent last evening just mixing various stuff and seeing if she was holding water....

Man, this mixer is the best sounding mixer I've ever used.

In the studio at the moment I have:

Soundcraft Ghost

Soundcraft Spirit Studio

Mackie 8-buss

Yamaha O2R

Mixers I have owned:

Soundtracs MRX (in the 90's don't remember much about it now)

Soundtracs PC Midi

Roland VM7200 series

AKAI DPS24

Roland VS2480

Yamaha AW2400

Yamaha AW4416

Yamaha AW2816

Roland VS1680

Roland VS880

Fostex DMT8

Boss 8

Soundcraft 200B


The Tascam M3500 is by far I would say, the best sounding mixer I've ever used. It gives a presence and punch to everything I've played through it. I think guitar stuff is going to sound brilliant. I think classical stuff is going to sound clear and defined. I can't wait to plug the tape machines into it. To my ears, it's given me a sense of quality, like listening to Steely Dan, you know that sense that all the spectrum is coming at you.

Mmmm.

Al
 
I've owned and used a 3500 for 25 years now...and I've not had any serious complaints... but the bulk of your mixer list falls in the same lower budget, personal studio class (well, it was the lower budget class back in 1990)...so when you say the 3500 is the best sounding console you've ever used...it's limited to your observation, and I don't disagree looking at your list.
I've looked at the Ghost and Soundtracs MRX and PC MIDI a few times...but quickly came to the conclusion that there was nothing to be gained switching to them. Any of them, including the 3500 would need some upgrades/mods to move into a higher quality bracket.

Now I'm not trying to tear down the 3500...like I said, I've owned one for 25 years...but I have used/heard some high-end consoles...and quickly realized you get what you pay for.
The headroom on the 3500 isn't great, and the console when loaded on all channels starts to really show that...there's greater crosstalk, plus it has more than it's share of noise issues, some due to poor grounding...but if you have a decent grounding scheme in your studio, it's not too noticeable.
Also, the EQ on the 3500 is pretty basic and not that great sounding, and the bussing isn't pristine.

All that said...if you run hot signals, and you don't expect too much from it...it's useable.

I remember calling TASCAM the first year I got the 3500 because I thought there was something wrong with it...due to the higher noise level when all faders get pushed up with lower signals....but they said that was the best that could be expected from the design, and they reminded me that pro consoles cost thousands and thousands more..etc....so I needed to simply lower my expectations. :D

I know some folks are going to think/say..."this is home recording"...etc...and I get all that, and again, I've used the 3500 for 25 years now, and it's been good me overall, and no serious issues after all these years...but my journey has always been about trying to take the sound quality to a higher level...budget allowing.
I've searched high and low for a used console that is pro-caliber, in great condition, and that could be had for a decent price, within my budget...mainly because I know the 3500 is at it's sonic limits, and there is nothing I can do more before or after the console to improve my sonic quality at this point...but I do know better sonic quality is possible.

Anyway...I'm not trying to sound negative about the 3500 or burst your bubble about it's capability.
I actually love it's smaller footprint, and the channel layout and the available buss options...it has everything that I need to do what I want. I just wish it was cleaner, higher quality EQ...and better master section for the summing.
If I don't find a better console soon...I may opt to start doing some of the many mods/upgrades out there that are intended to improve the sonic quality of the 3500....but I would feel somewhat silly throwing several thousand into a 25 year old console to fix what's wrong...VS...throwing money into a pro level used console to simply get it back to spec.

I've got my eye right now on an MCI JH636 that is in great shape...but I fear the price in the end will exceed my budget. :(
There's also a mint Soundcraft Sapphyre...fully recapped, overhauled, etc...but it's already over my budget by $2-3k...but it's a beautiful. modern board.

Based on what you've had...you should enjoy the 3500.
 
Hey Miro,

Thanks for the comments.

I think you're bang on with your judgement about the M3500 being the best desk that I have used. The others are all home recording / project studio stuff. That said, I'm hearing stuff in the M3500 that I haven't heard before. It has a clarity and an awful lot of 'space' in which you can put things. It's not as quiet as the Ghost (which is the quietest analogue desk I've ever used) and it's not even as quiet as the Mackie 8-buss. And yes, the crosstalk is possibly the worst that I've had....but is crosstalk really that important? For me it's not. When a signal is running at normal volumes, just one track running at normal volume will make the crosstalk on probably 20 or so tracks, disappear. As it is, I'm going to hook up the Mackie Ultra34 Automation system to the insert points for automated mixing and see how it sounds. The Mackie will also handle automated mutes, so it should be ok.

Al
 
Miro also has a 2 inch tape machine. That tends to set the bar for a mixer pretty high, as your sound quality is dependent on your weakest link.

That said, he's been happily using his console for 25 years. That says something. :D
 
Well my Molex turned up today but without the other bits (only the housings came).

I contacted the place and whilst talking thought there was another way to achieve what I wanted (namely less wires between the Master and Group faders and the Master Panel).

I plan on removing the soldered leads from the MASTER PANEL (L, R GROUPS 1-8) which go the faders and fitting a Molex type PCB board connector to each. Then I can solder straight on to the faders and by fitting the appropriate end to these leads, plug the faders straight into the MASTER PANEL. This will reduce the number of connections by one and also remove the miniature fader PCBs. I hope that will cure once and for all any future problems with the Group faders. I'll let you know how it works out.

Al
 
Hey Miro,

Thanks for the comments.

I think you're bang on with your judgement about the M3500 being the best desk that I have used. The others are all home recording / project studio stuff. That said, I'm hearing stuff in the M3500 that I haven't heard before. It has a clarity and an awful lot of 'space' in which you can put things. It's not as quiet as the Ghost (which is the quietest analogue desk I've ever used) and it's not even as quiet as the Mackie 8-buss. And yes, the crosstalk is possibly the worst that I've had....but is crosstalk really that important? For me it's not. When a signal is running at normal volumes, just one track running at normal volume will make the crosstalk on probably 20 or so tracks, disappear. As it is, I'm going to hook up the Mackie Ultra34 Automation system to the insert points for automated mixing and see how it sounds. The Mackie will also handle automated mutes, so it should be ok.

Al

Oh I totally agree that some of the 3500's shortcomings are workable...and if you give it decent signal going in, you have less issues with the crosstalk and the self-noise.
It's funny you mention the "space" as that is something I was talking about to people a long time ago when we were having digital VS analog discussions. I always said that when I took my mixes out of the box and through the 3500...there was this "space" thing that would occur and make the mixes sound more 3D to my ears.
The opponents would say...shit like, "Oh, there must be some misalignment with the stereo imaging causing that...blah, blah, blah"...but to me, it was something about the 3500, and misaligned imaging or whatever...it just sounded better with more width/height to the image :)


Miro also has a 2 inch tape machine. That tends to set the bar for a mixer pretty high, as your sound quality is dependent on your weakest link.

That said, he's been happily using his console for 25 years. That says something. :D

:D

Well yeah...it has raised my bar.
You heard those couple of mixes which were all tracked to the 2"...and the one thing you commented was that they were very clean with no tape hiss.
I don't know...this MX-80 sounds fantastic to me.
I didn't do anything odd to it AFA alignment and biasing. I use 499 and I did set the levels a little lower, meaning, I can hit it harder without hurting anything, so I do tend to record signals on the hot side...and maybe that's what's giving me the high S/N and that clean, no hiss sound....not to mention, I'm running at 15 ips without NR.

So yeah, when I pass it through the console for my final mixdowns, I don't want to add any console hash to the mixes because they are coming out very clean from the DAW 'cuz the tracking went down very clean and punchy.

Like I said, I can work with the 3500 as I have since the day I bought it and not complain...but I would love something that would let me take it one step higher, and maybe even add some of that high-end console mojo, depending on the board.
I'm not really looking for an old-school console that has tons of color...rather I want something that maintains the punch and sums really well, with just the EQ section being on the colorful/musical side.
 
Yeah, those mixes sounded good. Real good. :thumbs up:

I can only imagine with a high end desk.

But yours sounded great.

Btw, Miro, you got any comments on the. Interface thread about the ice16.?

Sorry to derail. :D
 
Hey Miro,

What I've learned (through listening) to different digital equipment is that they all have a sound. I read on a posting (or an engineer told me) that it's all to do with phasing that goes on when processing the digital signals to form the finished L/R buss. I hear this most with my own voice. Whenever I've recorded it digitally throughout, it seems to sound 'weedier' and lack any punch or presence, as if some frequencies have been scooped out. I think I've also noticed it on strummed acoustic guitar. The sound seems 'glassy' as if there's a sheen around the sound that masks the roundness of the sound in the room. It's funny how equipment gets slated, because the Roland VM series was never adopted widely but as a mixer I thought it sounded good. The mic pre-amps were weedy, and I think this is what gave the mixer a bad name. I think you have to work with a mixer for a while before you can fully discover whether it fits you, but ergonomically, the M3500 is a good fit. Just waiting for the courier to bring the new Molex so I can get this part finished......

Al
 
MOLEX!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've just finished preparing the leads for the faders, replaced the leads on the MASTER PANEL board and now find out I need a crimping tool!

The JST connectors I bought have a crimping tool......for £246! Over half the cost of the mixer.

I've just opted for a cheaper alternative (£25) to be told by the tech at the place I'm buying from that he couldn't 'recommend' the tool as manufacturers protect their connectors by making them different to the competition. Doesn't that just piss you off? He said given the price it might be worth a gamble. If it doesn't work, I think I'll remove the molex housings from the boards, re-solder the old connectors with the old leads still attached and just use some screw terminals to join the fader wires to the board wires. Probably cost £2-3 for the lot.

Grrrrrrr!

I though I'd be finished with this yesterday.

Good job the parts place do free next day delivery....should know whether the crimping tool does the job tomorrow.

Al
 
May seem slow in your mind, but looking from an outside perspective, you're moving fast! :D
 
Yeh, but like everyone else, I've got a million and one other things to do....it'd just be good to put this to bed.
As I type, the crimper has just arrived.

Update in a few hours.....

Al
 
ARGHHHHHHHHHH!

After two frustrating days dealing with Molex connectors I've decided to concede the battle...........but I'm not giving up on the war.

I've dismantled the Control Room Panel about half a dozen times now and it's fine when it's on the bench. It only hit me after the final re-assemble what the problem was/is. I outline it here in case anyone works on these mixers in the future.

I don't know if this is a standard feature of all Tascam mixers from this era, but unlike other mixers I've owned (Soundtracs and Soundcraft) Tascam didn't use 40-pin ribbon cables on these mixers to transfer signals along the buss. Instead they used three separate 12-way Molex type connectors with a plastic tray with connectors. When removing the cables for servicing a module, the pins receive a fair bit of ear and tear, and the hassle I have had is down to signal drop-out at these points. I didn't realise until I reverted back to soldering the Group fader cables direct to the PCB and still experienced drop-out (before this I thought my newly fitted Molex connectors to the PCBs were the problem, hence reverting back to a soldered solution). It seems the 'buss tray' which sits at the bottom of the 8 group cards is possibly to blame, along with the final three 12-way connectors which link from the INPUT buss bar to the CONTROL ROOM panel. I have 'hot-wired' one pin from the bottom of the buss tray to one of the 12 way leads which had snapped off (probably from too much plugging /un-plugging over the years). So I now have only GROUP 2 and 7 which don't work, everything else is working on the mixer, although I haven't yet re-capped any input channels.

So, if anyone is 'au fait' with the M3500 and the bussing system, is there an upgrade option available which would solve the weaknesses around the buss problem. I see an Ebay seller in the States has a machine which is being broken down for parts. It may be that replacing the final buss section might deal with the problem, but there are an awful lot of bits to this mixer where the signal can go AWOL, such as the 8 cards sitting on the buss tray.

As long as the mixer isn't moved it may not be a problem, but any movement to the mixer will cause these tiny connections to possibly move and then not work.

I'll upload some pics tomorrow.

Al
 
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