Tascam ATR 60 8 - Is it worth it? Help with functionality, please

[CSP]

Miroslav,

I was simply giving an alternate suggestion and a possible solution to the proposer's problem/question, especially in relation to trying to purchase "good" quality tape (especially 1" that I think the Teac uses), whereas he should not have too much trouble purchasing the S-video tape.

I do agree about the DAT machines, especially in relation to the tape itself.

I also agree that today if I was purchasing new gear, I would be going in an entirely different direction, but the HD-24 gear and digital console that I currently have (and have had and used for possibly 15years) is still producing excellent results including at least one "Top 10" Billboard CD and was (would be) one hell of a lot cheaper than purchasing a 72 channel Protools (or similar) system.

I should say that I also still have my "only one of its kind in the world" (I know because I built it), 8-track, 12 speed, 1" recorder, that needs three people to carry and my 1/4" TEAC 2-track, valve, recorder (that Teac/Tascam claim that they have never heard of although it has TEAC and a model/part number on every item in the unit) --- I use this machine as the master stereo recorder when recording on the 8-track and want to keep everything in the analogue domain (I use a old Behringer 24/8/2 console when doing these recordings).

I have been fortunate in that I have never used 456 type tape, but only ever used EMI tape and about the time I purchased the HD-24 units, I also purchased about 200 of the EMI tapes (both 1" and 1/4") and things recorded on them in the 1960's are still as good as if recorded yesterday --- absolutely no shedding or any of the other problems that have been experienced over the years with tape failing and definitely not one recording has been ruined because of tape failure. On many of the 1" tapes because of the number of head passes, during the recording and mixing processes, you can actually see the individual tracks.

The 8-track recorder works perfectly until its "piles" start playing up and need to be operated on --- but that's a story for another time !!!!!!!

David

 

[miroslav]

I wasn't trying to dump on your choice of recording format...just saying that IF we are going to suggest a digital format to the OP (he wants analog), there are much better options these days than ADAT. That's not meant as a putdown...just simple fact. Digital recording has evolved well beyond ADAT.

I think you were just making the "tape connection" for the OP...like if he wants tape recording, better off with ADAT tape...but I don't think that would fulfill someone's analog tape desires just because it's another form of tape recording...but who knows, maybe ADAT might interest the OP, I just don't think it would too many people these days unless they already had a working system.

 

[sweetbeats]

[MENTION=131361]CSP[/MENTION] I know you weren’t intending on starting a friendly debate over the efficacy of the ADAT format in these present times, but it seems to me the ADAT transports, or maybe rotary head tape tranports seem to have something of a more limited lifespan...more complex tape handling/loading-unloading mechanism, etc. I think that’s why I personally steer away from them. They don’t seem like a solid solution if the concern is around reliability. I’m not meaning to discredit the format, but simply highlight that, at this point in time, I think it’s more rare to find a working ADAT that, unless refurbished, will give the user a long relatively trouble-free life. My 2p.

I’m curious about your custom 1” 8-track machine. Do you have any pics you can post? Did you build it from the ground up? What type of tape path? What did you use for heads? Amplifiers? And what are the 12 speeds? I know the Ampex FR-1300 1” 14-track data transport I have has 6 speeds, (1 7/8ips on up to 60ips), so I’m trying to wrap my head around what other speeds at which it can operate.

Sorry to hijack. Maybe start a new thread?

 

[jamesperrett]

Maros,

I have not read the entire thread, but if you can return the Teac, and if you can find a unit in GOOD condition, can I suggest that you have a look at the Alesis 8-track ADAT recorder.

As an ADAT and analogue tape machine owner I would completely disagree with this. ADAT's work more slowly than analogue machines and kill the flow of a session. The convertors in them are also not great - yes they may be better than analogue on paper but they have a particular sound that many don't like. Any ADAT machine you buy now will be around 20 years old or more and likely to need maintenance which is harder to perform than similar maintenance on an analogue machine.

The ADAT's win on tape costs (if you can find the right tapes) but that's about all that I can think of.

If you are thinking about this sort of thing logically then the only sensible option is to use a computer these days - but there's something about working with a good analogue machine that can be more inspiring than a computer.

 

[CSP]

Sweetbeats and all others,

I take no offense at the ADAT comments, I was only giving a possible suggestion as an alternative and as I think I stated, I saw an HD24 unit on ebay and would consider this a much better option than the ADAT units even though it is not analogue, but it does avoid all the problems with finding and buying tape and also gives 24 tracks rather than the eight of either the ADAT machines or the Teac unit.

Sweetbeats, sorry for not responding sooner but I have been flat chat over the past few days. I wont bother to start a new thread because I can start and close it with this (LONG !!!) communication.

Re you request for info on the 8-track recorder, I have included at the end of this reply a photo (not a very good one !!!!) of the unit.

To answer your questions

The deck (an EMI Data Deck) was initially purchased by the local racing authority (about 1965) for their data logging, but between the time it had been ordered and delivered it had apparently been decided to go in a different direction. I happened to be in the Chief Engineer's office (on an unrelated matter) and saw the cardboard box containing the deck sitting in a corner. I asked what it was, what is was going to be used for, etc and was told that it was going to be dumped. I asked if I could have it and the rest is history.

I was responsible for building all of the electronics --- uses a most innovative circuit design --- I was very good at this type of design !!!!!

You will notice that the unit has no Vu meters, this is because at the same time a new console was also designed and built for a new studio I was constructing and as the recorder was going to be used exclusively with that console, it was decided (to save some money !!!) that the output stage of the console would be the input stage of the recorder, hence the console's meters were the recorder's meters as well.

For the heads I used what was, at the time possibly the most popular multi-track recorder brand's heads, those being Scully. The heads were placed such that the erase and record heads were mounted on a block (situated just above the bottom spool in the photo) and because of space limitations the playback head was placed almost directly above this block (just under where the top spool would be).

The result of this unusual head spacing, was that the distance from the record head, past the silver tipped roller (on the LHS) to the playback head was exactly 15 inches (this became most important later when the machine was put into use, but was not planned in the design stage), because at 15ips (the then standard professional recording speed) the time taken for the tape to travel between the record head and playback head was exactly 15 inches or exactly 1 second (or multiples or divides of that at the other speeds).

The actual speeds available in ips were -- 15/16th, 1 7/8th, 3 3/4, 7 1/2, 15, 30, 60, 120 (front switchable) and 11 1/4, 22 1/2, 45, 90 (selected from the rear of the recorder).

With all of these speeds coupled with the distance between the record and playback heads, the echo effects possible were amazing and resulted in effects that no other studio in the world (to the best of my knowledge) could achieve --- and effects that I doubt could be achieved today with most/any DAWs.

So consider the effect of (say) a guitar that had been recorded at 15ips which was then played back at (say) 7 1/2ips and an then a second guitar track then being recorded at this (say) 7 1/2 ips speed, while also looping the playback head of this second guitar track back into the new recorded track as it was being recorded.

Now the original guitar track would be heard at half speed and also an octave lower, so that when this overdub tack was being recorded while listening to the original track, it would now be possible for the guitarist to play twice the number of notes per bar. ALTHOUGH it was essential that the second guitar track was played in PERFECT sync with the original --- something that became VERY difficult and requiring only the best of guitarists (musicians), when the replay speed of the original 15ips track was played back and re-recorded at even lower speed.

Now when the recorder was returned to its normal 15ips speed, the 7 1/2ips overdubbed guitar would now be heard at an octave higher (more like a mandolin or similar) and the notes played at twice the speed. Add to this any looped echo that might have been recorded during this overdubbed recording and you can imagine quite an amazing sound would be heard.

Conversely if the original 15ips recording was played back at (say) 30ips and another guitar track was recorded at this speed (damn hard to get right !!!) when played back at 15ips it would be an octave lower in pitch and the sound quite drawn out, now also consider any loopng that might have been applied.

We used this effect mainly on guitars but also used it (with amazing sounds being produced) on flute and strings.

We were lucky to find a group of musicians who could actually handle all of this because what ever was being recorded by them was being heard through their headphones (echos and all). Most musicians (even the most highly sought after studio musicians) could not handle the recording method.

To give you an idea of what the recorder could do I have included a short snippet of a song (full song won a number of awards) that consisted of piano, 12string acoustic, 6 string electric and vocal and used all 12 speeds, with everything you hear being recorded as each track was being recorded --- there were absolutely no external or post recording effects used, everything was done within the recorder at the time of recording the individual track. The entire recording from memory took about 30+ hours to put down and consisted of the artist playing the instruments and singing with myself at the console making/recording all the sounds/effects --- 90+% of the sound was pure experimentation.

After the recording of the individual tracks (including a couple of track bounces to give us more tracks) all that had to be done was the actual mixing of the tracks to the stereo master.

I have "hopefully" uploaded a short segment of this track at the link below.

JJF by CSP | Free Listening on SoundCloud

Sorry if it doesn't work but I have tried about ten times and get an error message each time, so I have no idea how to upload it ----- bummer !!!

I have also included below the rather bad photo I took a few years ago of the 8-track recorder. The photo shows the unit with the head cover removed.

A coupler of things I did not mention was that there are two pinch rollers on either side of the capstan spindle (you can see one at about a 60deg angle just above the writing on the spool) and for tape tension there is a complicated system of two moving tension arms that unlike the tension arms on normal recorders always apply the exact correct voltage and therefore tension to the spools up to the point that the very last piece of tape passes over the capstan spindle --- providing that the recorder's piles don't play up !!!!!!!!!!!

You will also possibly note that the recorder can accommodate up to 14inch spools, although we only ever used 10 inch, so that a recorded tape could be taken by a client to another studio for extra recording if required.



You will also notice the glass door on the unit, this door is rubber sealed and inside there is a small pipe that by a clever blowing system (caused by the capstan motors cooling fans) causes a slight pressure build up and thus stops any dust from entering the tape area and possibly scratching the heads or falling onto the tape and thus damaging the tape (or heads) as the tape passes over the various components along the tape path.

Hope all the above answers your various questions.

David

 

[Maros]

If you have the "Master" cable, it means you can use the ATR as a Master- but without a slave it would be mostly useless. If you are trying to get a computer to chase the ATR, you don't need the ES-50. except to generate TC You would stripe Ch8 with code and send it to your computer. This is called a "Code only master". Putting the ATR in play will have the computer chase it The Es-50/51 can be used as a transport remote, because the ES 50 will send transport commands through the Master cable to the ATR
ADATs- are yesterday's news along with the Tascam DA series machines. Not many techs. still work on them and not much in the way of parts are still available.I t sounds like the OP wants Analog tape-not digital.FWTW I have new ATR 60-8 heads up on Ebay now.

Sorry guys. Sorry, for my late response. I had lot work to do, but..

I bought the machine because everything works - except one thing. I cound not try ATR / ES50-51 connection because the master cable was wrong - it had ACCESSORY connector and some cannon 9pin connector. So I use this ACCESSORY connector, bought tuning fork pins to enclosure and bought CENTRONICS 24pin connector.

Right now I am doing MASTER cable and I am confused. TACH+- I think should be wired to FF and HH pins on ACCESSORY connector. But what about DIRECTION+-? There is nothing similar on ACCESSORRY connector?

What about LIFTER CONT pin? When Using ES-50/51 module? I think that ES-50 MUST reads SMPTE code in rewind mode too? So LIFTER CONT should be low all time? But in this case in rewind modes I will excessively use heads

 

[jpmorris]

I'd be a little surprised if it needed to read the timecode in rewind mode. Most decks can't even do that because they need a wideband amplifer for the timecode channel, which AFAIK is usually an optional extra even on high-end decks. It should be happy with just a tach pulse from the rollers.
That said, I can't see a tach signal coming out of the deck, just the motor frequency - and that appears to be centred on 600Hz rather than the more normal 9600Hz servo timebase.

I've lost track of exactly what you're trying to do with this, but I think you're going to have trouble wiring this up as the master since the protocols appear to be incompatible. Could you run it as the slave instead?

 

[Maros]

I'd be a little surprised if it needed to read the timecode in rewind mode. Most decks can't even do that because they need a wideband amplifer for the timecode channel, which AFAIK is usually an optional extra even on high-end decks. It should be happy with just a tach pulse from the rollers.
That said, I can't see a tach signal coming out of the deck, just the motor frequency - and that appears to be centred on 600Hz rather than the more normal 9600Hz servo timebase.

I've lost track of exactly what you're trying to do with this, but I think you're going to have trouble wiring this up as the master since the protocols appear to be incompatible. Could you run it as the slave instead?

I have ES-50/51 module and I would like to use it with my Tascam ATR machine. I mean use it like remote control, autopunch, or maybe later with second tape machine in the future. For now, I want only to control tape machine (play, stop, rewind, rec, autopunch).

Thank you for information about lifter. So I left this pin untouched.

 

[Maros]

OK - I think that DIRECTION+- signal is Up/Down signal or K pin on Accessory connector. Direction information is on Q output of U3 flip-flop. This information goes to U/D signal on remote board and to ACCESSORY connector. So DIRECTION+ will be U/D signal and DIRECTION- will be ground. In a ES-50 is optocoupler driven by this signal.

Maybe.

 

[Maros]

My wiring:


and I tried this:

Tally supply -> SS
TACHO+ -> FF
TACHO- -> HH
DIR+ -> K
DIR- -> RR


Results:

1. After first power on I could control ATR transport commands via ES-50/51 module, except REC function. When I pressed REC and after that PLAY nothing happened. REC button is good because if not, ATR would entered PLAY mode.

2. If I press on the ES-50 module SET UP button and ATR enters PLAY mode. LED on SET UP button is ON. After some time LED start blinking (user manual says it is error). When I wait a few second ATR drop into FF mode, stops, and after few seconds LED on SET UP button is OFF. ON ES-51 module are blinking two leds 25 and 30 code status and ERROR led is ON. No blinking.

3. I also made connection via XLR cables from GEN OUT to TRACK 8 Input and from TRACK 8 output to TC IN on ES-50 module. I tried SET-UP sequence again. Similar situation. Then I tried to hit REC button on ATR and VU meter on TRACK 8 went into red like if GEN OUT signal is too strong... so something was recorded on a tape! I can see timecode moving on ES-51 display. When I rewind timecode is still there.


So there is some functionality but... do you have any experience? Maybe some ES-50 calibration? I really do not know why is GEN OUT signal so loud that it overdrives my 8. track

 

[jpmorris]

The TSR-8 has a switchable attenuator for the track 8 input. Does the ATR60? It sounds obvious, but I had track 8 go dead on mine and I had the machine in pieces before I realised that the attenuator switch had been knocked between poles...

 

[Maros]

The TSR-8 has a switchable attenuator for the track 8 input. Does the ATR60? It sounds obvious, but I had track 8 go dead on mine and I had the machine in pieces before I realised that the attenuator switch had been knocked between poles...

I cannot say right now, but I will check it. Hovever, it is not a big problem for me. In the worst case I insert there a voltage divider User manual says something about trimmer for setting right level...

Bigger problem is REC functionality and SE-UP error

 

[sweetbeats]

The ES-50 uses signal from the tach roller in fast-wind.

I can’t tell you all the details of what and how on what wire etc., But I know I have the schematic for the master cable. I’ll find it and find a way to get it to you.

 

[Maros]

I know I have the schematic for the master cable. I’ll find it and find a way to get it to you.

It would be so nice! Maybe there is some issue about DIR+- signals and when SET-UP is not done properly REC function will not work.

 

[sweetbeats]

Just sent you a PM with a link to a re-worked pdf of the ES-50 master cable schematic. Let me know if the link worked.

 

[Maros]

Yes, as I said in PM, thank you so much it really helps a lot! Now REC button is working. I still have some issues but I feel that I am so close to success. Really close.

0. When I power up ES-50/51 I have GEN OUT signal upcounting without any button pressed. It is present right after power up.

1. Signal from GEN OUT of ES-50 unit is so strong. There is a VR1 pot inside and when I set it to minimum I still got about -3dB signal level on VU. My VU meters are calibrated to approx. 1.4Vrms. I checked it. But this can be done easily with voltage divider. But it is quite interesting.

2. When I bypass GEN OUT directly to TC IN or I select INPUT monitoring on ATR I can see timecode on ES-51. So generator of timecode is alright.

3. When I press SET-UP button on ES-50 module, auto calibration starts. But in still ends with LED flashing and this indicate an error. I am doing wrong someting. I read user manual almost 100 times, but:

- Before SET-UP button do I need to record timecode to tape? If yes I press REC enable, hit REC button on ATR and press RUN button on ES module and wait about 40 minutes to record it on whole tape? But signal is already upcounting after power up of ES, so I would not have a "zero" from the begining of the tape.

- If not, how ATR must be set to successful autocalibration? I have REC enabled, SYNC mode and thats it..


Sorry folks for my annoying question but I really do not have any experiences because I am too young. Maybe there is problem with CP signal. I will check it with oscilloscope.

THANK YOU.

 

[sweetbeats]

I barely used my ES-50/ES-51 when I had it 12 years ago or whatever, so I don’t have any real “just do this” experience I can share.

Some questions for you:

In paragraph “1” above you said you calibrated you’re meters to 1.4V...What frequency tone did you use? And I’m assuming that means at a 1.4V amplitude of that signal your meters read “0VU”? That seems really high to me, which would make your program (or sync tone/code) to tape really hot. Normally, if using unbalanced -10dBV inputs you would calibrate the meters to read 0VU with a 0.316V test tone, usually 1kHz. If using +4dBu balanced inputs you would calibrate to a 1.23V test tone, but what voltmeter are you using? If it is an unbalanced meter and you are measuring your tone off of only pin 2 OR pin 3 of the input, you need to halve your reference measurement, so you would calibrate your meters to a 0.615V test tone if the tone is coming from a balanced source to a balanced input but your meter is unbalanced. So a little more information is needed.

In paragraph 3 you ask if timecode needs to be striped prior to the the auto-calibration procedure. Isn’t that what the manual says to do? I don’t have the manual in front of me, but that logically makes sense to me. The auto-calibration procedure is where the synchronizer and ATR talk to each other establish 00:00:00 and the tape machine characteristics. This is based on timecode. If there’s no timecode how can it do that?

And it’s assumed timecode won’t start right at the beginning of the tape. You have to have some leader on the tape. The ES-50 is looking for the beginning of the timecode on the tape during auto-calibration.

What do you mean “signal is already up counting”? Are you talking about on the ATR? The tape counter on the ATR?

 

[Maros]

I barely used my ES-50/ES-51 when I had it 12 years ago or whatever, so I don’t have any real “just do this” experience I can share.

Some questions for you:

In paragraph “1” above you said you calibrated you’re meters to 1.4V...What frequency tone did you use? And I’m assuming that means at a 1.4V amplitude of that signal your meters read “0VU”? That seems really high to me, which would make your program (or sync tone/code) to tape really hot. Normally, if using unbalanced -10dBV inputs you would calibrate the meters to read 0VU with a 0.316V test tone, usually 1kHz. If using +4dBu balanced inputs you would calibrate to a 1.23V test tone, but what voltmeter are you using? If it is an unbalanced meter and you are measuring your tone off of only pin 2 OR pin 3 of the input, you need to halve your reference measurement, so you would calibrate your meters to a 0.615V test tone if the tone is coming from a balanced source to a balanced input but your meter is unbalanced. So a little more information is needed.

I am using balanced inputs/outputs, Fluke 177 True RMS Meter and oscilloscope. I was talking about RMS value of input signal, not amplitude. So I checked and previous owner set it to approx. 1.4Vrms. I do not know why, I recalibrate it but right now it is not important. If I set input level lower, lets say to 0.316Vrms I immediately overdrive ATR input with too high SMPTE signal from ES-50 (right now is input sensitivity set too high and VU is on -3dB when SMPTE signal is present). You told me that this SMPTE signal is quite lower, about -10dB because of crosstalk for example. So I definitaly need to lower it - lower it from ES-50 module. I set trimmer to min. value but SMPTE signal is still too high.

In paragraph 3 you ask if timecode needs to be striped prior to the the auto-calibration procedure. Isn’t that what the manual says to do? I don’t have the manual in front of me, but that logically makes sense to me. The auto-calibration procedure is where the synchronizer and ATR talk to each other establish 00:00:00 and the tape machine characteristics. This is based on timecode. If there’s no timecode how can it do that?

Well. For me is more logical, that in SET-UP sequence ES will record short SMPTE signal on tape, then rewind and read again - for example. Because imagine situation that I record SMPTE signal on whole tape and after that autocalibration throws me an error. I know, I know...it is only my opinion but manual do not tell me about steps before SET-UP sequence. There is step-by-step procedure that everything is powered off, then some wiring and then after first connection hit SET-UP key to autocal. No RUN key to record timestamps... I know maybe I am talking too much but I do not want to destroy something because it was too expensive for me so I rather ask "stupid" questions as to screw up something.

And it’s assumed timecode won’t start right at the beginning of the tape. You have to have some leader on the tape. The ES-50 is looking for the beginning of the timecode on the tape during auto-calibration.

No, No. I thought that after I power up whol system, ES-50/51 immediately starts generate SMPTE signal to GEN OUT. Without any key pressed. So when I hit REC to record SMPTE signal, timecode is now on 00:05:20:00 value (for example). For me, again is more logical that ES-50/51 module wait. I hit record button and than I hit RUN button to jam SMPTE signal on tape and this starts from zero (tape is, of course, somewhere after start).

What do you mean “signal is already up counting”? Are you talking about on the ATR? The tape counter on the ATR?

No. I am talking about SMPTE signal from ES-50 module. When I bypass GEN OUT and TC IN with XLR I can see timecode SMPTE signal from ES-50 on the display of ES-51 module and it is counting up. This is only test if SMPTE signal is correct.

 

[sweetbeats]

This is difficult because we are not talking about the same thing with your level setting. I don’t have time to dig into the details of this right now.

I can’t tell if you are changing the input level, or are calibrating the meters, or what...and no offense but I’m not sure you understand either.

It sounds like maybe you need to calibrate the electronics and then go from there.

Amplitude means signal level, in this case AC RMS.

Is the Fluke meter balanced or unbalanced?

I’ll read more and respond more later.

 

[Maros]

This is difficult because we are not talking about the same thing with your level setting. I don’t have time to dig into the details of this right now.
I can’t tell if you are changing the input level, or are calibrating the meters, or what...and no offense but I’m not sure you understand either.

I think I am writing clearly. I do not do anything with ATR input channel sensitivity for now. Nothing. I just try to tell you that my 0VU input level is 1.4Vrms. It was measured between 2 and 3 pin of XLR connenctor.

When I apply ES-50 SMPTE signal to THIS input, on my VU meter I can see signal around -3dB. This is too much. SMPTE signal should be lower, around -10dB. I try to set it with VR1 trimmer, but still to high. Thats all. It was only information about how big signal from ES-50 is. I just curious why it is. It lets say rhetorical question.

That 1.4Vrms is not so common - yes - I will calibrate my ATR to standard 1.23Vrms later.

Amplitude means signal level, in this case AC RMS.

Sorry and no offense too, but amplitude is amplitude and RMS is RMS. When we have a sine wave with 1V amplitude, RMS value of this signal is 0.707Vrms. For example with +4dBu = 1.23Vrms = 1.73Vpeak