Tascam 246 mixer questions

[famous beagle]

Ok, I have to admit, I don't think I've ever fully understood the routing on most 4-track machines. Way back in the day when I started on a Fostex X-26, I never bothered to use the monitor section; I always just monitored my tracks off the main mix. In other words, as soon as I had recorded something on a track, I would just put that channel in the "tape" or "remix" setting and monitor that. I never used the monitor jacks on the back; I always just used the Line Out ones. This worked fine for me, the main drawback being that I had to plug into a new input every time I wanted to record a new track.

And this has really kind of been the way I've worked ever since.

But now I've finally got my Tascam 246 up and running and am ready to record some tunes on it. And I want to understand it fully, but I have some questions. This machine has a fairly sophisticated mixer section compared to my 4-tracks of the past. I'm hoping some of y'all can clue me in. I have the manual, have read it all, and am trying to understand it, but it's not answering all my questions.

1. Is there a way to hear effects added to a track (tape play back) while monitoring the cue mix? In the manual when it discusses recording the first track and overdubbing the second track, it only mentions listening to the monitor submixer (the MONITOR GAIN and PAN knobs). It doesn't mention anything about effects at all. (Actually, it doesn’t even mention anything about effects in the “Remix or Mixdown” procedure either!)

If I'm understanding the manual correctly (and if all of my experiments have been correct), I'm guessing that you're normally supposed to complete all your tracking and overdubbing with dry signals. Is this correct?

2. Is there a way to hear, say, reverb on a vocal as you record it but not print it to tape? I can’t seem to find a way to do it.

I think this was one of the reasons I shied away from using the monitor mix way back in the day. I couldn’t find a way to hear effects, and I wanted to hear a little verb or something!

I’m sure I’ll have some other questions eventually, but these two are a good start.

Thanks to anyone who can help me!

 

[Findlay]

In answer to Q2, I haven't used a 246 but on my 244 I think I remember being able to record vocals dry on Track 1 with pan set hard left but send an aux out signal to a reverb unit and fed this back into the the aux input right channel, adjusting the aux rcv gain to suit. This gives you the reverb in the right ear of the phones but I think you can make this mono by switching to aux monitor. I may be completely wrong but worth a shot! If I was using single guitar and vocal I often used to use this set up and take the luxury of recording off-tape echo from reel to reel at 7.5ips on to track 2.

Not sure about Q1. Presumably you've al;ready tried sending aux out to a reverb unit and feeding this back to aux rcv while listening to the cue mix?

 

[famous beagle]

In answer to Q2, I haven't used a 246 but on my 244 I think I remember being able to record vocals dry on Track 1 with pan set hard left but send an aux out signal to a reverb unit and fed this back into the the aux input right channel, adjusting the aux rcv gain to suit. This gives you the reverb in the right ear of the phones but I think you can make this mono by switching to aux monitor. I may be completely wrong but worth a shot! If I was using single guitar and vocal I often used to use this set up and take the luxury of recording off-tape echo from reel to reel at 7.5ips on to track 2.

Not sure about Q1. Presumably you've al;ready tried sending aux out to a reverb unit and feeding this back to aux rcv while listening to the cue mix?

Regarding your last question, yes I've tried that.

Regarding the first bit, I had thought about that too (recording on track 1/ODD PGM but sending the verb back to the EVEN PGM), but as you said, the verb would be in the opposite ear. But, I hadn't thought about the MONO option. That could be a solution. I'll give it a shot, thanks!

 

[Findlay]

Just remembered how to do (1) on a 244. Mic input to track 1, aux send to reverb in, reverb out to line input of track 2. Track 2 pan set to full right. Set monitor to cue for mono mix. Adjust amount of reverb using aux pot (set to pre) and track 1 trim and slider. Set record to track 1 and you get a dry vocal on track 1. Hope this helps!

 

[famous beagle]

Just remembered how to do (1) on a 244. Mic input to track 1, aux send to reverb in, reverb out to line input of track 2. Track 2 pan set to full right. Set monitor to cue for mono mix. Adjust amount of reverb using aux pot (set to pre) and track 1 trim and slider. Set record to track 1 and you get a dry vocal on track 1. Hope this helps!

Ok thanks, that makes sense. You must have meant number 2 instead of 1, right?

 

[famous beagle]

I just tried your suggestion, Findlay, and it worked like a charm. I was able to have a synth playing assigned to 1/R with its reverb return assigned to 2/R. By pushing the MONO button, I'm hearing both down the middle, but with only the track 1 record function engaged, I'm only recording a dry synth on track 1. That works great; thanks for the tip!

But I still don't think it's possible to add effects to a track playing off the tape unless the channel/track is set to the RMX mode.

It seems that, if the track is not set to RMX but the signal is coming off the tape, then it simply goes straight to the MONITOR submix and then on to the MONITOR OUT jacks and METER/PHONES SELECT switches and to the PHONES.

This seems to be confirmed by the Pictogram at the end of the 246 manual.

I know the 244 is slightly different, but I imagine this is probably the case for it as well.

 

[Findlay]

Glad you got it to work FB! I will check out adding effects on my 244 over the next few days. May be off line for a while but will get back.

Have just tried again to work out how to solve (1) and can't seem to do it! Meanwhile, my oldest and best 244 has just lost all sound output - I've posted a thread for help!

 

[sweetbeats]

Don't really know much about the 246 mixer section, but just took a peek at the block diagram in the manual.

For printing dry but monitoring wet, it would depend on whether or not you were recording to all 4 tracks at once. If you had a free PGM BUSS and weren't using mixer channel 5 or mixer channel 6 then I'd bring my reverb back into the A or B input on channel 5 or 6. You can then assign that to an unused PGM BUSS and then access your reverb return via the monitor mixer...set level and pan to taste with the cue mix of your material going to tape on the other PGM BUSSes; by not recording that BUSS you can monitor with your dry signal, but not print the effected signal to tape.

For printing wet it's the same setup, but rather assign the reverb return you have connected to A or B on channel 5 or 6 to whatever PGM BUSS has the source that's feeding the reverb you want printed wet (like if you have vocal on channel 1 input and you are assigning that to PGM 1 and therefore tracking to track 1, just assign your reverb return to PGM 1 also...it'll print to tape with the vocal assigned to PGM 1 on channel 1, and you can set the mix of wet and dry signals while monitoring via the monitor mixer).

Stereo reverb? Return it on both inputs A and B on channels 5 and 6. In this case you'll be using 2 PGM BUSSes to monitor if you are wanting to print dry but hear the effect during tracking. If you are printing wet then you can monitor and mix the wet and dry signal and track to 2 PGM BUSSes and still have the other two BUSSes available for tracking.

So that's the limitation with my approach above; it uses up PGM BUSS real estate to do it if you just want to monitor the effect but print dry.

It appears to me that is part of the intention of having a 5th and 6th channel, and those extra line inputs...you have two mono returns or one stereo return.

If you don't want to sacrifice channels 5 and 6 then, if you have some control of the output level from your reverb effect unit, you can just connect the output(s) of the reverb to the PGM BUSS in jack(s) of your choice...those are upstream of the monitor mixer and PGM faders...you just lose the trim and level control and eq functions on channels 5 and 6 if you use the BUSS IN jacks for returns, but this is another way to do it, and it leaves channels 5 and 6 open for other purposes...it's a more clean way to return your effect.

 

[famous beagle]

Thanks for the explanation Cory, but I'm still not 100% clear on this.

My issue isn't necessarily hearing reverb while recording (whether printing or not) ... it's hearing tape tracks through the monitor buss along with FX returns or sub-ins --- all out of the MON jacks or phones.

For example, I'm wanting to start recording a song with a FSK stripe on track 4, using EZdrummer on my computer. I've got the syncing working great, and the computer is chasing the code perfectly. So now to route that signal to the 246.

I can have the outputs of my computer (EZdrummer) plugged into either channels 5 & 6 (normal or Line B) or the PGM BUSS ins of the 246. If they're going to CH 5 and 6, I can just, as you said, route them to BUSS 3/4, for example, leaving 1 and 2 open for recording.

If I press the PGM/CUE button (see picture), I'm monitoring the PGM material out of the MON jacks, and so I can hear the EZdrummer part perfectly. But I can't hear the tracks off the tape like this, because I'm not monitoring the CUE mix.

If I'm listening through the 246's MON jacks and press play on the 246, for example, and have the EZ drummer playing along (sent to CH 5 and 6 and assigned to BUSS 3/4, for instance), I can hear the tape tracks when the PGM/CUE switch is up (not lit, CUE). I can hear the EZ drummer part when the switch is down (lit, PGM), but I can't hear both at the same time.

Is there a way to do this?

And this kind of circles back to my original question. I want to be able to hear a signal (whatever: FX return, EZDrummer part from the CPU, etc.) that's routed to CH 5/6 or one of the PGM BUSS ins along with tracks on the tape while listening through the MON jacks or the phones.

If there's a way to do this, I haven't found it yet. The only way I've been able to hear both sources (the tape and the aux signals) simultaneously is by putting the tape tracks in RMX and then monitoring off the PGM buss.

Man .... I guess I used to think portastudios were easier to use than they really are (for me). Because now that I'm actually trying to fully understand them and how they're "supposed" to be used, I feel like a total idiot!

 

[Dreverb]

i dont know if I fully understand it, but you should be able to hear the channels with input selected as rmx plus the other two aux channels... or not? just tying to help....

 

[famous beagle]

i dont know if I fully understand it, but you should be able to hear the channels with input selected as rmx plus the other two aux channels... or not? just tying to help....

Thanks for the reply. If I'm understanding you correctly, then yes you're right.

If I have, say, a guitar part recorded on track 1, I can put that track/CH into RMX, assign it to BUSSes 1 and 2 and pan it to taste, and push the PGM/CUE button so that it's lit (PGM is selected). This will allow me to hear what's recorded on track 1 along with what's coming in from the aux source, which could be an FX return or EZdrummer from the computer, etc.

However, this means that I can't record anymore without bleed because all of my busses are being used by something. In other words, if I try to record on TRK 2, for example, the guitar part (from TRK 1) will be on there to some degree (unless it's panned hard left) because it's assigned to busses 1 and 2. If I try to record on TRK 3, then the aux source will be on there because it's assigned to busses 3 and 4.

So I'm trying to find a way to be able to hear the aux signal (FX return) while listening to the tracks off tape in the cue (monitor) mix.

In the 246 manual, it says that the basic process is to use the cue mix for all the basic tracking --- in other words, none of the channels should be set to RMX. Only when it gets to the mixdown section does it tell you to put the channels in RMX.

But if I'm supposed to do that (lay down the tracks with the cue mix), how am I supposed to hear the drum part coming from the computer (which is chasing the 246 via time code on track 4) so I can play along to it?

I can't hear the drum part unless I listen to the PGM buss, and I can't hear the tape tracks in the PGM buss unless I put the channels into RMX.

Or is that not right?

Damn ... I'm so confused at this point.

 

[bachelorb]

why wouldn't you lay in the drum track on the 246, then comeback through the cue and play to that? (If that comes across as smartass, it's not. It's just I found on the 244, I had to lay those electronic tracks first... granted I know nothing about this time coding of which you speak.....)

Is it a time saving deal?

 

[famous beagle]

No it's not a time-saving deal; it's a track saving deal. If I record the drums to track 4, then I have to make them mono. If I want to keep them stereo, I have two options: I can record them to two tracks (such as 3 and 4), or I can do what I'm trying to do, which is sync to tape. This way, I can add not only MIDI drums if I wanted but also maybe MIDI synth, MIDI keys, etc. and leave tracks 1-3 open to record "real" instruments like guitar, bass, vocals, etc. Since the computer chases the 246---i.e., it starts playback from wherever I start playback on the tape---you don't ever have to "record" those MIDI instruments until the final mixdown. So they don't eat up tape tracks; they only eat up one track (track 4) for the sync code.

 

[Dreverb]

I think it is a better option, sync to tape, and monitoring everything from the computer.

 

[famous beagle]

I think it is a better option, sync to tape, and monitoring everything from the computer.

How would I monitor my 246 tape tracks from the computer?

 

[RFR]

No it's not a time-saving deal; it's a track saving deal. If I record the drums to track 4, then I have to make them mono. If I want to keep them stereo, I have two options: I can record them to two tracks (such as 3 and 4), or I can do what I'm trying to do, which is sync to tape. This way, I can add not only MIDI drums if I wanted but also maybe MIDI synth, MIDI keys, etc. and leave tracks 1-3 open to record "real" instruments like guitar, bass, vocals, etc. Since the computer chases the 246---i.e., it starts playback from wherever I start playback on the tape---you don't ever have to "record" those MIDI instruments until the final mixdown. So they don't eat up tape tracks; they only eat up one track (track 4) for the sync code.

Makes sense. Thats the way we did it in the old days.
Only difference is, then we used a sequencer, now you're using the computer.

I would however, since you're merging modern tech with old, put your live instrument tracks into the daw as well.

I have plenty of old 8track cassette multitracks that I can not recreate the mix because the original keyboard and sequencer are long gone. I just have the timecode and real instruments on tape.

 

[sweetbeats]

Beagle, I'd love it if my 12 X 8 mixer was 16 X 8, but it's not. You wish your 246 had a two jacks labeled

MONITOR IN
L R

so you could sum an external stereo source with the stereo sum of your monitor mixer, but it doesn't.

In fact it doesn't have anything like that.

You are needing something beyond the feature-set of your gear, so you have to compromise somehow.

We can always ask "why" a company didn't include a certain feature on a particular product...Teac was very focused on crafting features, innovations and design/build quality into a package that set new thresholds for price point. They did this time and time again. The mixer on a cassette 4-track Portastudio is never going to be considered "full-featured". An additional set of line level input jacks would require a buffer amp circuit on one of the existing PCBs or on its own PCB. This would increase the price point. Decisions would have been made between engineering and marketing as to whether or not the cost of a particular feature would draw more sales. My opinion is the feature you wish the 246 had would have been set aside; it wouldn't have swayed potential buyers who were on the fence. And since the 246 already has a pretty comprehensive 6 X 4 mixer, like more comprehensive than any other Tascam 4-track, marketing already had its eye/feature candy...they would have been pushing engineering to cut costs so they could lower the price point and draw more customers.

looking further in the manual, can't you use the record function switches to monitor a combination of tape tracks and inputs via the monitor mixer without having to source an input to RMX? You are still limited to a mix of 4 groups, but maybe this helps? See the last paragraph of page 33 of the manual:

 

[famous beagle]

Beagle, I'd love it if my 12 X 8 mixer was 16 X 8, but it's not. You wish your 246 had a two jacks labeled

MONITOR IN
L R

so you could sum an external stereo source with the stereo sum of your monitor mixer, but it doesn't.

In fact it doesn't have anything like that.

You are needing something beyond the feature-set of your gear, so you have to compromise somehow.

We can always ask "why" a company didn't include a certain feature on a particular product...Teac was very focused on crafting features, innovations and design/build quality into a package that set new thresholds for price point. They did this time and time again. The mixer on a cassette 4-track Portastudio is never going to be considered "full-featured". An additional set of line level input jacks would require a buffer amp circuit on one of the existing PCBs or on its own PCB. This would increase the price point. Decisions would have been made between engineering and marketing as to whether or not the cost of a particular feature would draw more sales. My opinion is the feature you wish the 246 had would have been set aside; it wouldn't have swayed potential buyers who were on the fence. And since the 246 already has a pretty comprehensive 6 X 4 mixer, like more comprehensive than any other Tascam 4-track, marketing already had its eye/feature candy...they would have been pushing engineering to cut costs so they could lower the price point and draw more customers.

looking further in the manual, can't you use the record function switches to monitor a combination of tape tracks and inputs via the monitor mixer without having to source an input to RMX? You are still limited to a mix of 4 groups, but maybe this helps? See the last paragraph of page 33 of the manual:

View attachment 98106

Thanks for the info Cory. My head is still swimming a bit right now trying to figure all this stuff out.

I guess I figured that, since the manual tells you to monitor off the cue mix during all the basic tracking (I'm assuming it does this to free up the inputs for recording with all six channels if needed?), and there's this diagram showing how to hook up an "Electronic Music Studio" involving a drum machine chasing tape (see picture), then there should be some way to do it.

You can see in the diagram that the audio output of the drum machine is routed to either input 2 or PGM buss 2 (I'm guessing this is and either/or thing --- I don't know why it would be sent to both). This diagram is basically what I want to do, but I can't figure out how to hear the drums (EZdrummer in my case) and the tracks off the tape at the same time.

What am I missing?

 

[sweetbeats]

You want to monitor ez drummer in stereo?

How many tracks are full and which do you want to monitor?

What are you wanting to record and to what track(s) while you are monitoring ez drummer and tape tracks.

Be specific. I'll try and help. But I've never even seen a 246 in person.

 

[famous beagle]

You want to monitor ez drummer in stereo?

How many tracks are full and which do you want to monitor?

What are you wanting to record and to what track(s) while you are monitoring ez drummer and tape tracks.

Be specific. I'll try and help. But I've never even seen a 246 in person.

Thanks Cory, but I think you've already answered my question by assuring me that there's not a way to do what I was originally asking. I think I can probably find workarounds to do it, but like I said, from looking in the manual, I thought I wouldn't need a workaround.

Thanks again!