Is tape head degaussing a myth after all?

Do decks (tapes) even get beyond 16KHz? Maybe the high-end Dragons, but my D6C specifies a maximum of 15KHz, even with IV tapes.
Plus, I'd say that most music don't even get beyond 10KHz. If it takes more power (Gauss) to erase lower freqs, how much Gauss is needed to start affecting 10KHz? 6KHz? Is this a linear, exponential or logarithmic scale or is it really just made up? It all seems very foggy to me...

On an unrelated side note, DC offset can destroy your speakers. A wrong bias can kill your amp, yes, but it won't explode. That happens only when your caps go bad (and my 40 years-old ELNAs are still good).
 
Do decks (tapes) even get beyond 16KHz? Maybe the high-end Dragons, but my D6C specifies a maximum of 15KHz, even with IV tapes.
Plus, I'd say that most music don't even get beyond 10KHz. If it takes more power (Gauss) to erase lower freqs, how much Gauss is needed to start affecting 10KHz? 6KHz? Is this a linear, exponential or logarithmic scale or is it really just made up? It all seems very foggy to me...

pretty much ALL music has partials and harmonics that go well above 10k and losing those affects the timbre of what you hear. There is quite a bit of study that indicates that stuff even higher, up above 20k, while inaudible, affects how you hear the stuff that is audible.

And I have a couple of cassette decks rated up to around 18k with Dolby S.
I feel pretty sure that reel to reel decks go on up above that. Hell ..... the old Quad format used a 20k ( I believe) carrier wave to provide the extra 2 channels which put some of what was on the record up to around 30k.
 
I got the impression that there was more science in the stuff that soviet123 quoted rather than in the stuff cited by beck.

Not sure why or how this comment relates.

It would be interesting if Jaddie could jump in and offer some more of the experience and technical details, measurements, etc.

Jaddie, who is the original source, whoever he/she/it is didn’t quote anyone but he/she/itself. This is why so much misinformation and confusion is on the Internet in the first place.

Since so few people can even recognize a credible source or a logical argument I recommend most people just follow manufacturer directions. Every tape deck manufacturer recommends degaussing the tape path in user/maintenance guides… from Studer, Otari and ATR to Tascam and Fostex. Ask yourself why they do to begin with! That’s where you start, not with the Jaddie’s or every Tom, Dick and Harry. I know why they instruct users to degauss. Every capable recording engineer used to know why they do. The myths are started by posts like Jaddie’s. For some reason people eat it up, and in this case my guess is especially when the topic is a frightening mystery to them.

The premise is really this: “Oh crap, do I really need to demagnetize the heads? It’s scary! I might do it wrong! I might ruin my machine! I might get killed! It’s of the Devil! Can’t you go blind? What if my parents catch us?” LOL People are looking for someone to tell them they don’t have to and they’ll latch onto anything floating around out here.

The real issue here and what you’re witnessing on these forms and others like it is the slow but sure loss of any grasp of the fundamentals, whether that be acoustics, gain structure, impedance, machine maintenance, etc. That’s the real story. And unfortunately it’s inevitable. The know-nothings and know-littles vastly outnumber the know-anythings. It’s the nature of the beast.

The web is no place for research to end. It should only begin. Most of what I know isn’t even on the web. Its passed down and in standard references that you once found in every major and minor studio… and they’re still in my library. They’re called books. But really… Christ all Mighty! This is even an easy one. What will be questioned next? Perhaps we don't really need magnetic tape at all. We can use lace and ribbon from the local fabric store. It's been covered up all these years by tape companies... just now coming to light because tape companies have lost their influence. Yeah, I'm amused at this whole thing. LOL :D But don't let me stop anything... please. :p
 
I will just add, I would never do such a disservice to my own music or that of a client by letting routine maintenance go and put their tapes at risk. I don't know anyone else who's been doing this as long as I have who would be that careless either. Now I'm done... so you can run with the conspiracy. By the way, I believe Vince Foster, Deputy White House Counsel to President Clinton was really killed in 1993 because he knew all about the cover up due to his association with Foster Electric Co (Fostex) and was about to blow the whistle. I don't want to stir the pot... I'm just sayin'. I heard it somewhere... on the web, or I dreamed it. Either way you can take it to the bank!

:cool: :drunk:
 
LOVE your conspiracy theory, Beck! :laughings:

I can't add much, but I do recall way back when, and I do mean WAY back when, in the late 70's, I had a Grundig R2R machine. The co-worker who sold it to me loaned me his demag'er, with detailed instructions on how to use it. The FIRST time I de-mag'ed the Grundig's heads, I could feel the de-mag'ger doing it's job- the de-mag sort of buzzed in my hand as I got closer to the head. I figured, can't hurt to do it again, so I repeated the whole process. That time, I felt almost NO buzzing of the the de-mag. I took that as a good sign that I had de-mag'ged the heads well the first time. Not a quantitative measure, for sure, but a pretty good sign, I think, that I did something.

Sure wish I still had that old Grundig machine. It was all tube- even the "UV Meter" was a tube that fluoresced in a pale green color. Very cool.
 
I will just add, I would never do such a disservice to my own music or that of a client by letting routine maintenance go and put their tapes at risk.

Yes...on a commercial level, with constant new clients, new sessions, new/different tapes, and steady/daily working environment, it would be foolish to skip regular maintenance and leave anything to chance. I'll clean my decks a couple of times during sessions if I'm moving the tape a lot...and always another "wipe" before I dump the sessions to the DAW.

In the past, when I recorded stuff on a regular basis (couple of days worth) and was only working with a tape deck, I use to demag weekly. Thing is, as much time as I spend in my studio these days, I'm only running tape every so often, so the frequency of demags has gone down overall, but I'll check the deck with the meter once in awhile and if the needle ain't moving from it's natural state, I just let it go longer.

Of course...now that you've put the fear god into everyone....I think I'll go demag my decks. :D
 
Jaddie, who is the original source, whoever he/she/it is didn’t quote anyone but he/she/itself. This is why so much misinformation and confusion is on the Internet in the first place.

I agree, and certainly would continue to demag my decks. But it could be interesting to hear any science behind Jaddie's post(s). Maybe he can prove it, maybe not. Same goes for anyone's posts on the web actually when it comes right down to it. Miroslav confirms above that little change occurred for him when measuring before and after demag.

However, that's not going to stop me from doing what I consider proper maintenance, including demag.
 
I'm with diggy_dude on this one.

I've had a "static-discharge" type of random click on a Portastudio before that was cured by demag. Not a myth.

With Beck on this too, cause he goes deep and knows his shit.

I hardy ever record anymore, so what does it matter to me?:eek::confused:/DA
 
I picked up one of those cassette-shaped demagnetizers, because it was cheap and why not?
After doing a demagnetization and cleaning the heads and tape path in general, a well-listened tape seems to have less high-freq "fuzziness". This may be due to placebo effect, though.
I guess it couldn't hurt. Still no senior electrical techs?
 
oh ......... degaussing.

Sorry ..... please disregard my Nit and small-tooth comb recommendation.
 
One possibly relevant observation:

The Tascam wand demagnetizer does, essentially, nothing - so if degaussing were necessary, everybody using that unit wouldn't be doing it.

The Han-D-Mag, on the other hand, really does demagnetize things: as a test, I once tried it on a screwdriver with a magnetic tip. No more magnetic tip on that screwdriver.
 
Actually I have saved considerable $ on my power bill as I have not had to turn the lights on at night since we have been glowing!!!
 
Wow, interesting what happens when you don't keep an eye on the forum for a while! I guess I've been quoted a bit.

I'm sorry I can't cite any references but my own on this, I did have enough material together to do an AES paper on it at one time, seems sort of pointless now.

Looking over the posts in this thread, I might be able to shed more light.

First issue: to demag regularly or not. I am not in favor of blind, routine demagnetizing. All I'm really saying is, if the symptoms dictate it, look for the root cause of the magnetism. There's nothing inherent in tape recording or the materials used that should magnetize heads or parts. If you see symptoms pop up, find the cause, because demagnetizing might "fix" it for you, but it's only a band-aid. If symptoms don't dictate it, you can just as easily create a temporary residual field with a degmagger as get rid of it. I'd leave it in the tool box, unless you have an emergency, and even then, only use while monitoring the resulting symptoms. Keep in mind, the record and erase heads have bias and erase current on them when in use, which is a much hotter demagnetizing field that you can induce even with a demagnetizer.

Next, gauss meters and magnetometers were mentioned. I'm not taking a shot at the R. B. Annis unit, it's accurate in the fields it was calibrated for. But, you can't measure the residual field on a head with it. The field is concentrated in the gap, and you can't get that big thing anywhere near the gap. I've spoken to the manufacturer, it's only accurate in "large cross-section fields". A gauss meter with a very small hall-effect probe can intercept a bit of the residual fields on heads, but not enough for accuracy. The bigger problem with either device is, they are sensitive to the earth's magnetic field. You need to find a position where the device reads a null in the earth's field, then swing your tape machine parts into that position. It's really hard to do. Again, ok on large guides, no good on heads.

The only way to tell if you have a magnetization issue is by checking for symptoms. They are: HF erasure with repeated plays (like 25 to 50), elevated noise over virgin tape noise caused by just running tape through the machine, elevated low frequency noise during record, elevated even-order harmonics during record. The even harmonics indicator is VERY sensitive to residual.

Lots of people have a story about how demagnetizing fixed their machine. Well, sorry to say, it didn't "fix" anything, it just hid the real problem temporarily. Hey, that might just work for you! In my world, I like things to work properly, and not have issues that sneak up on you. I'd fix the machine, not just keep demagnetizing it. There are poorly designed tape machines in the world. Some have parts with a natural magnetic state that is somewhat polarized. Cheap (or very old) heads, for example. Machines that kick a huge pulse through the heads when switching in or out of a mode can be self magnetizing. Power on/off transients could be an issue too. But, again, there' nothing inherent in the materials or process that causes magnetization by just using the machine.

I know every test tape has a warning, and every maintenance manual does to. And I'm not saying you should ignore them. However, everyone with a computer, a sound card, and free spectrum analyzer software has what they need to test for the effects of residual magnetism, and more importantly, verify their demagnetizing efforts are really working. I am quite certain, if you really check for symptoms, you'll either find you don't need to demagnetize, or you'll discover a defect in your machine that you can address.

My information was taken from the results of a series of detailed experiments I conducted on this issue many years ago. I was told by the staff at the studio where I worked as an engineer that I didn't need to demagnetize, and I didn't believe it either. I asked permission to research the issue, and was permitted to do so.

I rented a lab-grade F. W. Bell gauss meter, and used a Tektronix 5L4N spectrum analyzer to do the tests on several different machines. Yes, it was in the late 1970s, or early 1980s, that's all we had. The tape stock used was Ampex 630, 406, and 456. To measure the effects of a residual field, I had create one. I used a permanent magnet as the source, and placed the hall-effect probe at the head surface to determine the field strength that I was introducing. I varied the field strength while observing the symptoms. That established the basic flux levels that had to be present to produce the symptoms.

Next, I tried to deliberately magnetize the machine's heads by using the permanent magnet. I succeeded, and got lots of symptoms. I then tried to demagnetize while monitoring for changes in the symptoms. I found that demagnetizing was not as reliable as I though! In fact, several times I made things worse.

My last experiment was to deliberately magnetize a machine, and leave it that way. In 24 hours, the machine had reverted back to a neutral state without demagnetizing.

At the studio I used the 5L4N spectrum analyzer for tape machine alignment, and routinely checked for symptoms of magnetism. I never found any in the 15 years I worked there. The facility had upwards of 30 1/4" machines.

So, I maintain, routine demagnetizing is unnecessary, and not recommended UNLESS you monitor the results with instrumentation, and if it is necessary, go find the cause of the problem, because it should not be. There is nothing in the recording or playing process, nothing inerrant in the heads and guides that results in magnetized parts. Recording signals produce strong AC fields which tend to degauss, and the flux found on recorded tape (AC fields also) is far too low to magnetize anything.

Residual magnetism is the result of a defect, not the process of magnetic recording.

Anyone and everyone is welcome to disbelieve what I say. I just would encourage you to experiment for yourself first, before sticking to widely accepted dogma.
 
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