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Thread: Studer 928 Story...

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by sasquatch View Post
    I was under the impression broadcast console designs put extra effort with regards to noise and especially crosstalk.
    Balanced summing,robust ground schemes and some +8dBu nominal outputs.Maybe just the good ones.

    G
    Yes, superb desing and quality to be sure but things like balnced summing are used to get THE best noise performance it seems when headroom rules.

    D. Self* quotes the Neve 51 series (not so dusty mixer peeps?) as having internal levels down at -16dBu giving a 36dB headroom at the expense of noise which matters little given the limited S/N of even the best FM broadcasts.

    *Small Signal Audio Design and Self is a world famous audio designer from way back to Wireless World days. Big contributions for Soundcraft. I am presently working my way through his book on solid state power amps. LOT of sacred cows getting shot in that, I might make an even bigger nuisance of myself soon! (once/IF I come to full grokking)

    Dave.

  2. #22
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    Always wondered why Neve chose voltage summing as apposed to current(virtual earth) summing in the early days.
    No need to run at those low levels.Big mistake.
    Big fan of Dougie.

    https://www.forsselltech.com/media/a...mming_buss.pdf

    G
    Last edited by sasquatch; 01-22-2019 at 07:50.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by sasquatch View Post
    Always wondered why Neve chose voltage summing as apposed to current(virtual earth) summing in the early days.
    No need to run at those low levels.Big mistake.
    Big fan of Dougie.

    https://www.forsselltech.com/media/a...mming_buss.pdf

    G
    I shall read that .pdf soon but I do not get from Self that running at neg 16 was done "lighty"? Broadcasters cannot have mixers "cracking over" if at all possible whereas a bit of extra noise matters little. You cannot have your cake and eat it! DS says the optimum internal level is -2dBu which also gives the common +4dBu from a balanced drive amp.

    Balanced summing gives a theoretical 3dB noise advantage but I think its main use is to reduce crosstalk in bigger systems?

    Dave.

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    Late 60's early 70's most likely not an issue with a hand full of mics and piss poor gear down stream.
    Now with 15-20 mics just on the kit and digitals dynamic range every 2-3dB you can squeeze off the noise floor is gold.
    Vintage Neve to track,SSL to mix as they say.
    Or Studer for both.

    G

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by sasquatch View Post
    I was under the impression broadcast console designs put extra effort with regards to noise and especially crosstalk.
    Balanced summing,robust ground schemes and some +8dBu nominal outputs.Maybe just the good ones.

    G
    Just the older big ones are different beasts. I think Sweetbeats' Studer was one of the last dinosaurs. Completely analog, very customisable and with lots of routing options.

    Mitec was the last manufacturer of that kind. You could get direct outs on every channel if you wanted, fi. Loved by classical music recordists, who wanted an exact set of features and nothing more. Very clean sounding, with sensible eq. And simple electronics. No exotic DOA's...

    The newer and the smaller broadcast mixers offer different routing options, compared to their non-broadcast brethren. But these aren't the ones used in studios. They're designed for mobile use, have 8 or 16 channels. Like the Soundcraft 200B. Just a few switches extra, compared to the "normal" 200.

    The newest are full digital, of course.
    MB Pro, FF400, AKG C451-C1/CK8, NT1, B5, MD21, Korg RC168, DEQ830, ADA8000...

  6. #26
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    Yes the 928 was among the last generation of Studer analog consoles made from 2000 to 2006 I believe. Mine is an earlier one. All analog, but with a fair amount of logic-based switching, and all input faders are voltage controlled and there are four VCA groups.

    I don’t think there is any reason to be concerned about internal level. The nominal input and output level at all inputs and outputs is +6dBu...that is, at the inputs and outputs which don’t necessarily speak to the internal level. Unfortunately there’s no level diagram in the manual, but even the nominal level at the balanced insert points throughout the inputs and master section is +6dBu. I’ll have to look at the gain structure at a couple of the amp stages to see what the lowest level is.

    Puttered around last night for awhile getting more familiar with the console and taking some notes...answering some of my own questions.

    I pulled the master A buss VU meter assembly out to see if I could figure out why the left meter doesn’t work. What I found out is it’s not the meter itself so that’s good. So I’ll follow the cabling upstream. I suspect there is a bad connection at the motherboard or possibly the ribbon cable is damaged somewhere. But everything is so nicely designed on this console, and the materials and fit and finish is just a joy. I love the modular meter bridge...and all of the connectors are these latching type connectors...gold contacts...nice:

    52a9a884-add5-4b58-9b5c-16a79489d6aa-jpeg

    I also did some troubleshooting for that bad input on one of the stereo modules, and I’ve narrowed down that it is indeed a problem with that one module (the problem moves with module when I plug it in to a different slot in the frame), and the cause of the problem is somewhere between the insert point and where the signal fans out to the different busses. So now that narrows down what to look at on the schematics and test.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyrano View Post
    I think Sweetbeats' Studer was one of the last dinosaurs.
    Not sure why you would refer to analog consoles as "dinosaurs"...? You do realize that there still several manufacturers that build analog consoles.
    I mean...it's not like they became extinct 15-20 years ago.

  8. #28
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    Boo-yah...

    Like this:

    Harrison Consoles

    A Harrison 950MX is sort of what I was drooling after, but knew it was way out of my price league. I think the Studer hits most or all of the engineering and materials points featured on the Harrison console, but the Studer has quite a bit more signal flow flexibility...the Harrison doesn’t offer group channels for instance...really designed to be an analog front-end and summing facility with the convenience of traditional control room and studio monitor and aux buss functions...plus, the Studer has cool stuff like the stereo width control, VCA groups, etc...I feel like I got the best of both worlds at a bargain price.

  9. #29
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    I had my eye on a used Harrison a couple of years before the Trident...I forget the model...but it was down in the Washington DC area, which would have been a 2 day ride, plus the guy wasn't able to (or not wanting to) help load it (it was up a flight of stairs). I ended up passing on it.
    The other couple of more modern consoles I was lusting after was a D&R Orion...great price on a tip-top used one I found , but it was out in California...and the other one that I've lusted after is a Neotek Elan or Elite...but they were always pretty pricy, even when older, if they were in good shape.

    TBH, in the end, I think the Trident 24 London was meant to be for me.
    About 2 years before I got the one I know have, I ran across an identical Trident that was pretty close to me (down in NJ). It was in a private studio from the day it was purchased, super-clean. It was being sold by the widow of the studio owner...and I could have had it, but I was having to deal with a middleman, who was a friend of the deceased guy (the widow had asked him to help her unload the studio contents)...and the middleman was just making it really hard to coordinate a time when I could go over to see it. He wanted to be there, rather than me just meeting up with the widow. So we went back-n-forth for a couple of weeks. He ends up calling me one Saturday night, saying if I wanted to meet him in NJ at like 9AM Sunday, it would be good for him. Well, it wasn't good for me.
    Anyway...things fizzled out with the communication...and I figured it wasn't meant to be.

    FFW a couple of years later, and another model Trident 24 London pops up, and I didn't waste time (if you recall from our conversations)... plus this seller was eager to wrap it up quick (it was in his ex-wife's house). I spoke with him on Thursday and made a verbal deal, sent him a couple of hundred good-faith money, and picked up the console the following Monday. The whole time I kept chuckling how that particular Trident model WAS meant to be for my studio.

    Quote Originally Posted by sweetbeats View Post
    ... VCA groups, etc...I feel like I got the best of both worlds at a bargain price.
    Great feature!

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by miroslav View Post
    Not sure why you would refer to analog consoles as "dinosaurs"...? You do realize that there still several manufacturers that build analog consoles.
    I mean...it's not like they became extinct 15-20 years ago.
    It’s not analog. It’s build quality and clean sound.

    Sure, there still are new analog consoles around. But nothing like a Studer...
    MB Pro, FF400, AKG C451-C1/CK8, NT1, B5, MD21, Korg RC168, DEQ830, ADA8000...

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