Slaving the Deck Vs. Chasing Tape

sr71rules

Member
These days, syncing your DAW with tape is a great way to build a hybrid work-flow by mixing the best of both the digital and analog worlds. I often see discussions on having the DAW chase the tape machine but rarely see a discussion of Tape chasing the DAW or 'Slaving the Deck'. Instead of hijacking some other thread, I thought it might be nice to have a thread dedicated to this topic. I was unable to find one through searching.

Personally, my DAW chases Tape. I use the remote of my tape machine and when I press play on it, Protools leaps into action. I work this way for a very simple reason: I was easily and inexpensively able to buy the hardware to allow me to accomplish that. I picked up a JLCooper PPS-2 on ebay and was off and running.

Whenever I read through a post with someone asking questions about making a similar setup work for them a few posts will usually contain a little text at the bottom saying that it's better to have the tape machine slave to the DAW. (I'm looking at you Sweetbeats :D ) Accomplishing that, for me at least, seems to involve sourcing some rare hardware and I'm wondering what the benefits are? My TSR-8 has the sync ports built it, the machine is ready to do this kind of thing, but I've not done it and I'm not sure how to do it beyond finding a Tascam ATS-500 or ATS-1000 (The Midiizer?). Am I missing some obvious and simple method to lock the machine and my DAW together? What do I gain as benefits? Is it just that my DAW will be a more reliable time keeper?

Robert
 
You got it Robert! With all due respect to my friends here that do it the other way... having the analog deck chasing the DAW is in a word... Wrong.

I've been syncing devices with SMPTE even before MIDI came on the scene back in my audio/video days. With MIDI and DAWs there are even more reasons than ever before to have the analog deck as master. One reason is cost. I also use an inexpensive JL Cooper box... the PPS-1 that has worked flawlessly for me for 20 years now. I currently run a TSR-8 as master with an Echo Layla and the results are outstanding.

Perhaps the biggest and most obvious reason to use the analog deck as master is the responsiveness of the DAW compared to the mechanical transport on an analog deck. When the DAW is slave it makes fine adjustments at the speed of light to stay in perfect sync. When an analog deck is slave the mechanical transport cannot respond nearly as fast to fluctuations and this is often quite audible. Tape decks naturally drift a bit and the transport logic control is periodically making adjustments to keep the tape speed consistent. When the tape transport makes these fine adjustments as the tape is running a DAW or MIDI device will follow instantly. So in short for the tightest sync using an analog deck with MIDI or DAW having the tape deck as master will be most accurate.

You're going to get other opinions on this of course and people do have success the other way around. However the other way requires much more expensive gear that's getting harder to find and many analog decks can't even be slaved. They have no means for external transport control. I've been syncing various equipment since I was 17. I'm now 40-something and using the analog deck as master has proven to be the best option in every scenario I've encountered over the years. I’ve never had an issue with this method, so this is the way I highly recommend.
 
...having the analog deck chasing the DAW is in a word... Wrong.

When the DAW is slave it makes fine adjustments at the speed of light to stay in perfect sync.

I think I'm pretty consistent in pointing out that the advantage (and thus the recommendation I give for most) to slaving the DAW is cost and ease.

Tim, I take exception to you using the word "wrong". You are doing a disservice to readers IMHO.

The "professional" method has always been to slave the tape machine.

People need to understand that the "fine adjustments" the DAW makes to stay in step with the tape machine means actual subtraction or addition to the digital audio. Audible? Probably not, but I don't want my capstan motor making a decision for me about what I do and don't want in my DAW project.

The other thing that is important to realize is that with all the fuss about the integrity and quality of your wordclock in a digital environment, you are, in essence, making the mechanical tape transport your wordclock reference by placing that as the master..

That to me is counter-intuitive. I won't say "wrong". It is most certainly an effective and accessible means of sync'ing a tape machine and a digital transport. It is not the method I have chosen, and I feel really comfortable with my reasoning, but that will never stop me from encouraging others to slave the DAW. I will educate, and then make a recommendation based on what the poster's experience, skill level and financial means are and in most cases it is just not worth it for somebody to go through the additional headaches of slaving the tape machine.

BUT...I want to go on record as stating the if you want the relationship that maintains the integrity of your digital audio and clock reference, you will seek to slave the tape machine. Period.
 
Ahhhh......mmmmmm......

I've done it both ways. I use to slave the deck way back when I used my Atari/Cubase combo because there was a specific driver installed on the Atari/Cubase that talked directly to the tape deck.

Right now, I use the tape deck as master and I slave my Samplitude DAW to it. I tried it the other way...and found this way worked better and was more stable.

One thing though...I don't believe that the DAW is actually responding to the deck continuously for every SMPTE/MTC fram as a *speed* reference. AFAIK, the DAW uses the computer's internal clock or Word clock to drive/set it's audio engine, and the SMPTE is there mainly for start/stop cues.
IOW…the DAW’s audio *speed* is NOT controlled by the tape deck’s SMPTE/MTC…but rather by whatever digital audio clock is being used (computer or incoming Word).

I've never tried actually slowing down the deck manually to see what the DAW would do. I don't think the DAW will slow down and/or speed up along with the tape...I could be wrong….but if anything it may just stop because the SMPTE sync has been lost.
Of course, I may be totally wrong...but here a quote from a discussion on the Samplitude website by someone who I think knows his stuff… and I think it kinda’ says what I was trying to say above.

Time code is intended to be used only to find the precise location to be synchronized. The speed is dictated by the reference [computer or Word clock].
 
wrong IS the right word... why in the world would you want the slower medium to chase the faster??? it syncs way faster the other way around...
 
I've never tried actually slowing down the deck manually to see what the DAW would do. I don't think the DAW will slow down and/or speed up along with the tape...I could be wrong….but if anything it may just stop because the SMPTE sync has been lost.
Of course, I may be totally wrong...but here a quote from a discussion on the Samplitude website by someone who I think knows his stuff… and I think it kinda’ says what I was trying to say above.

If the DAW clock is not tied to the SMPTE timecode reference on the master tape machine than how can you call it synchronized??? Think about it...
 
So, what does a setup where the tape machine chases the DAW look like? You are using a synchronizing box right? You don't press play in the DAW, you press play on a box? I've seen Sync boxes for ADAT machines that have sync ports for tape machines, the RC-848 has them, for instance. Sweetbeats, what does you setup look like?

I understand what you mean about the DAW having to make up for the Tape machines not perfectly even playback. When I press stop on my tape machine the DAW goes for a bit before it stops. It seems to be able to carry on a bit with spotty code but it's the catching it up and slowing down it has to do to keep in sync that makes the issue.

I have manually slowed down my tape machine to see what my DAW does.. and it freaks out. It plays a bit, stops, plays a bit, ect. I'm not sure it screws with things on a sample level, to me it seems more like it drops out if it's too far out. How does it keep in sync though? How does that work? It's trying to be 'frame' accurate to the SMTPE/MTC but how does that translate down to the sample level?

How far down does the rabbit hole go?
 
So, what does a setup where the tape machine chases the DAW look like? You are using a synchronizing box right? You don't press play in the DAW, you press play on a box? I've seen Sync boxes for ADAT machines that have sync ports for tape machines, the RC-848 has them, for instance. Sweetbeats, what does you setup look like?

I understand what you mean about the DAW having to make up for the Tape machines not perfectly even playback. When I press stop on my tape machine the DAW goes for a bit before it stops. It seems to be able to carry on a bit with spotty code but it's the catching it up and slowing down it has to do to keep in sync that makes the issue.

I have manually slowed down my tape machine to see what my DAW does.. and it freaks out. It plays a bit, stops, plays a bit, ect. I'm not sure it screws with things on a sample level, to me it seems more like it drops out if it's too far out. How does it keep in sync though? How does that work? It's trying to be 'frame' accurate to the SMTPE/MTC but how does that translate down to the sample level?

How far down does the rabbit hole go?

First of all, it doesn't use any more hardware than when you slave the DAW. You've still got a tape deck, sync box, MIDI interface and the DAW system.

I use the transport controls for the DAW that are present on my DAW controller but you can use your mouse or anything that controls the DAW transport and the tape machine chases. My synchronizer also has a controller for the synchronizer and THAT can be used as well.

And how does it look (literally)?

Here is a short Quicktime video of my BR-20T chasing Cubase...I give several examples of advancing or retreating the DAW timeline position by minutes and then pressing PLAY to give the synchronizer and tape machine the challenge of locking to a moving target. The TimeLine Micro Lynx does such a fine job of controlling the BR-20T and the BR-20T has such a responsive transport that there isn't actually any back-and-forth scrubbing at any point and the lifter control is very conservative so there is minimal impact to the heads. Its really slick.

https://www.torridheatstudios.com/ftp/share/Movies/Tascam%20BR-20T/MVI_6489.mov

Some DAW's do indeed truncate or augment the sample stream to accomodate the fluctuations. Cubase doesn't. Now you're thinking: "Well what's the big deal then?!?"

The big deal is this...here's how Cubase deals with audio playback...it still locks to an internal clock. Good. Wait...HOW does it stay in sync then? It...DOESN'T. The manual goes on to say that for true syncrhonization with Cubase a central wordclock reference is needed for the studio so that all components can resolve to a central clock. Ummm...including the tape machine...chasing. :eek:

Boy. I guess those folks at Steinberg must be a bunch of idgets.
 

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You are using a synchronizing box right? You don't press play in the DAW, you press play on a box?



Yes you do press play on the DAW and everything syncs to it. Why would anybody with thousands of dollars in convertors compromise the audio ?

One more time on my tired old video to prove it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eV63e7tWWIQ







I have manually slowed down my tape machine to see what my DAW does.. and it freaks out. It plays a bit, stops, plays a bit, ect. I'm not sure it screws with things on a sample level, to me it seems more like it drops out if it's too far out. How does it keep in sync though? How does that work? It's trying to be 'frame' accurate to the SMTPE/MTC but how does that translate down to the sample level?

Sonar (version 5 and 6 anyhow) will speed up chipmunk wise and slow down (think Lurch) before it completely gives up. The sychronizer that Sweetbeats is using was originally designed to be used with Avid/ Protools. It's the best of the best. Tascam used the Timeline system on the MX2424. You will see the logo on those machines.

Cory, three cheers. No matter what people say, you are doing it the way the big boys did and many still do.
 
wrong IS the right word... why in the world would you want the slower medium to chase the faster??? it syncs way faster the other way around...

My problem with chasing the DAW is I don't think time is digital. :D Also It makes me think that it will cause some kind of weird wear on the tape deck mechanics.
 
wrong IS the right word... why in the world would you want the slower medium to chase the faster??? it syncs way faster the other way around...

Absolutely it IS the right word if you concern is how fast stuff locks up and you are less concerned about what making your tape deck your clock master is doing to the rest of the digital.

Yep..."wrong" is "right" in the do more in less time world alright.

I'm more concerned with the audio. Each to their own.

And besides you still have to shuttle the tape transport anyway when slaving the DAW, don't you?? If you've seen the video of my BR-20T chase-locking to Cubase on the fly then you know that the amount of time difference to achieve lock between your way and my way is minimal...Notice that the BR-20T doesn't even have to sweep-sweep-sweep...yes it slows down a little bit as it approaches the DAW timeline, but when you are using an autolocator on your tape deck does it not slow down the transport as the locate point is approached? And my example is an on-the-fly test. It is even faster if I stop the DAW transport and let the tape machine chase to a static location...nigh different from when I'm shuttling the tape transport to a locate point outside of a sync relationship. And locking on-the-fly (and by locking I don't mean the tape transport entering PLAY mode...I'm talking about the tape machine being stable and resolved to the master) takes about 1 second, 2 at the most, to achieve full stable lock to the clock master which is my wordclock.

Bottom line: if you slave the DAW you are either changing your digital audio, or you don't actually have a synchronization relationship. Hey...it works, is simple, and inherently involves less headache and cost to get it setup unless you have the cabling and hardware already, but it is compromised with respect to the audio.
 
My problem with chasing the DAW is I don't think time is digital. :D Also It makes me think that it will cause some kind of weird wear on the tape deck mechanics.

Watch the video and tell me how much more wear there will be? And is it worth compromising the digital audio or not actually having a true sync lock?

If it is then more power to you. I have no problem with that. I just know it isn't for me and as I've said before and will say again I don't know if I could ever hear the effects of truncation/augmentation or drift possible with the DAW as slave...it may be a total non-issue and I know so many of you have used/currently use a sync setup with the DAW as slave and in spite of my choices I have no problem urging folks toward slaving the DAW when it seems a more prudent option. In most cases it is. That does not make slaving the tape deck "wrong". Doesn't make it "right" either just as slaving the DAW isn't "wrong" or "right" IMO. It depends on your means and priorities. I simply think it is valuable to consider what is really a part of each choice.
 
Watch the video and tell me how much more wear there will be? And is it worth compromising the digital audio or not actually having a true sync lock?

I'll check out the video. I don't really have a big opinion on all this. I haven't done much midi, or slaving. I'm pretty much stuck doing it the way I'm doing. I probably will be synching more often now though, now I've only got 4 tracks.
 
The two videos in this post are so freaking cool! Makes total sense now seeing it in action. I can totally understand why you believe that to be a better method... and I'm going to have to see about finding the gear to make that happen here. I imagine the equipment is only getting harder to find and more expensive.

The 'internet' says the Micro Lynx is the best way to make it happen. Are their other ways to do it? The Tascam Midiizer seems to also have MIDI I/O but I can't find a manual for it, or it's little brother the ATS-500. (Though finding the manual for Micro Lynx was easy!)

An ADAT remote, Tascam's RC-848, has the ability to slave a reel to reel to the DA-X8 machines but I don't see a way to slave a tape machine directly via MIDI. It seems possible to slave the DA-88 to MIDI and then the reel to reel via the DA-88 though. Way to convoluted...

The wheels are turning... Thanks for all the great info!
 
Well...just to keep stirring the pot... :)

Sonar (version 5 and 6 anyhow) will speed up chipmunk wise and slow down (think Lurch) before it completely gives up. .

Yeah...but it's not much different the other way. If your deck is able to chase/lock...and you start messing with the DAW's speed...the deck will also attempt to keep up.

What's the difference?

I think a lot of the discussion about which way is "better" is based on assumptions that the deck is going to be spinning wildly and that the DAW will have to jump all around to keep up. :D
Maybe if you force the deck to operate wildly...but most do not. If they are under SMPTE control and have internal timing mechanism, they are usually stable enough not to ever throw the DAW out of time.
Maybe I'm in the minority...but my deck has a built-in, internal synchronizer....so it's not going to behave any differently if it's acting as a slave or a master. The deck's synchronizer will keep it on time...therefore the DAW also stays on time because the deck is on time.

Now here are a few things I found out on the Internet, worth checking out that talk some more about these exact things.
I’ll quote the relevant part, but read the entire articles if you want it in context:

http://www.sweetwater.com/expert-center/techtips/d--03/28/2003

A high quality master clock can be introduced into most digital studios and DAW systems by simply connecting it to the clock inputs on the devices in question. For example, if your DAW's audio interface has a word clock input you could connect it to the output of a high quality clocking device and possibly achieve better sounding results through the reduction of jitter and other clock related anomalies. (This is a deep subject that goes well beyond this simple statement or this Tech Tip - we're just trying to lay some groundwork here.)
This injected clock will take over the sample rate of the digital recording, and thus control its timing. You are correct in observing that this creates a situation where a system potentially has two different sources for timing information: the newly injected word clock, and the timing information coming in via MTC from the MIDI interface/synchronizer. The rest really depends on how the software handles things, which means there are potentially as many answers to this question as there are programs available for digital audio recording. With this in mind there are a few things to think about:
In many cases applications have some method of switching hardware between internal clocking and external clocking. Whether you are using the clock coming in from the interface/synchronizer or the high quality word clock box you will need to have your system set up to listen to external clock. When this is the case the sample rate (read recording speed) of your system will usually be dictated by this clock, whether it comes in over the word clock jack or through some digital audio input.
Since this clock may not be resolved to the frame rate of the MTC, this brings up the question of what happens inside the software when they begin to drift from one another? Understand that the software will usually not know they are drifting. There is no address or location information in the word clock data so the only concrete information present to tell the software there is drift between the speed of the clock and the speed of the time code is if it compares the relative speed or phase (see WFTD Phase Lock) of the incoming signals. How your program may react to this if it even measures it is something that could be investigated. Under most normal circumstances this is not a major problem because any drift is likely to be minimal for relatively short durations of time, such as five minute songs, etc. Many software apps can reconcile the two in a way that is transparent to the user (they aren't really reconciled, but graphically it can be made to appear so, assuming the discrepancy is very small). Situations where it could be a problem include working with time code that has a lot of drift or changes of speed, such as an old (analog) tape machine. In those cases it is often better to just resolve the DAW to the inconsistencies of the tape machine while they are synchronized together. Situations where MIDI parts must play along with the digital audio files with very tight synchronization can reveal problems as well. In the case we're examining here, MIDI will be following MTC for speed, while the audio is following the external word clock.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/432886-smpte-reader-windows.html
You'll have to slave the 1010 to the VS2480 wordclock if you use the VS to resolve the SMPTE signal. Without a clock signal, Cubase will be freerunning. MTC and most other time code signals are used as jam sync, meaning it syncs to the time code only on start, and then continues following the clock source - typically the audio card. So the audio card must sync to the device that resolves the SMPTE signal.

http://www.korromusic.com/docs/docs/docs2_assets/sync.pdf
Analog to Digital Sync
Synching an analog system to a digital system, either tape or a DAW, is
conceptually the same as synching two analog machines. The two systems need to start at the same point, and they must agree on the playback speed.
As with analog machines, time code, such as SMPTE or MIDI Time Code (MTC), is used for communicating the start point. Though continuous sync is achieved differently, because digital audio workstations have no tape motors to control. Then word clock must be used to set the playback speed.

And more from the Steinberg/Nuendo site:
http://www.steinbergusers.com/TechDocs/Nuendo4/NUENDO_Syncronization.pdf

**********

Again...I think there is much ado about nothing here *unless* you have one really wacked out tape deck that is NOT capable of outputting solid SMPTE/MTC...and even that can probably be fixed with a box that corrects/regens the unstable code.

But other than that...if anyone can actually hear and/or visually see in the DAW specific audio anomalies caused by the deck being the master...
...please post them up and those of us in opposition will stand down. ;)

Like I said...I've done it both ways, so I'm not really in opposition... :)…I just don't think it's a big deal in many cases, and in my own current situation it just seemed to work better with the deck as master. When I tried the deck as a slave...it was just too "jumpy".
Heck...any time I touched the DAW to move its playback head...the damn deck would keep jumping around trying to keep pace...which was a MAJOR PITA and a LOT of needless wear-n-tear on the deck's transport! :eek:
With the deck as master...you only move the tape when you need to.
 
Tim, I take exception to you using the word "wrong". You are doing a disservice to readers IMHO.

Your opinion doesn't appear to be too humble as of late.

Look Cory, I didn’t learn what I know by reading through web forums…. Where the children run the classroom as it were. Perhaps the greatest disservice I do is using this God forsaken format to try to convey best recording practices, as here I’m just another voice competing with a hundreds of voices that don’t know what the hell they’re talking about.

I know what best practices are... what is the right and wrong way to do something… when there is a clear right and wrong way. And when I'm asked I'm not going to ride the fence and try to please everyone... I'm going to tell you what I know. And after 30+ years of working in all areas of music recording I’ll be damned if I’m going to be humble about either.

I should write a book and charge for it. Instead I hang out on a couple web forums and give away my lifetime of music/recording experience for free… only to be raked by neophytes who’ve gleaned all they know from the web... and some have gotten a bit too big for their britches in the process, believing it’s that easy.

The "professional" method has always been to slave the tape machine.

No, that's incorrect. Synchronization of electronic devices such as synths, drum machines and computers in music recording, whether using SMPTE, Roland's proprietary pre-MIDI standard, or MIDI ALWAYS had the analog deck as master. I was there from teenage working in TV A/V production and music recording studios as it evolved. I watched Synchronization grow up to what we have today and I've always employed it from pre MIDI days in my own personal studios as well, and still do. In video production using SMPTE, the ATR multitrack was slaved to the VTR, but no, not in music recording. And by the way synchronization of two analog machines was always a pain in the ass! It was never ideal and was despised by everyone I knew in the recording community.

And this notion that a slaved DAW will have degraded sound quality is utter nonsense... urban legend. You'll only find this crap on the web. When you set a DAW for external synchronization, whether MTC or anything else it has nothing whatever to do with the performance of sampling and playback. It's not an issue... doesn't exist.

As I’ve stated occasionally in the past… a simple thank you will do… and you’re welcome!!!
 
The 'internet' says the Micro Lynx is the best way to make it happen. Are their other ways to do it? The Tascam Midiizer seems to also have MIDI I/O but I can't find a manual for it, or it's little brother the ATS-500. (Though finding the manual for Micro Lynx was easy!)

An ADAT remote, Tascam's RC-848, has the ability to slave a reel to reel to the DA-X8 machines but I don't see a way to slave a tape machine directly via MIDI. It seems possible to slave the DA-88 to MIDI and then the reel to reel via the DA-88 though. Way to convoluted...

I think the video of the Micro Lynx speaks to its abilities, and I've been really impressed with how its put together. Its got my vote.

The ATS-500 won't do the trick. It doesn't speak MIDI.

Again...I think there is much ado about nothing here *unless* you have one really wacked out tape deck that is NOT capable of outputting solid SMPTE/MTC...and even that can probably be fixed with a box that corrects/regens the unstable code.

But other than that...if anyone can actually hear and/or visually see in the DAW specific audio anomalies caused by the deck being the master...
...please post them up and those of us in opposition will stand down.

Like I said...I've done it both ways, so I'm not really in opposition... …I just don't think it's a big deal in many cases, and in my own current situation it just seemed to work better with the deck as master. When I tried the deck as a slave...it was just too "jumpy".
Heck...any time I touched the DAW to move its playback head...the damn deck would keep jumping around trying to keep pace...which was a MAJOR PITA and a LOT of needless wear-n-tear on the deck's transport!
With the deck as master...you only move the tape when you need to.

Miroslav, thanks for the quotes. I'm not in opposition either and I'm not the one that said one way was wrong or right.

I like slaving the deck better and my system works well. The Micro Lynx resolves the SMPTE to the MTC which is a product of the internal DAW clock or the external clock. Either way there is one (internal or external) there is one reference in the array.

Yes the reference for the capstan is solid, but there is still intertia and moments to deal with in the tape path.

Thanks again for the kindly info.


Tim,

Your opinion doesn't appear to be too humble as of late.

Okay.

Look Cory, I didn’t learn what I know by reading through web forums…. Where the children run the classroom as it were. Perhaps the greatest disservice I do is using this God forsaken format to try to convey best recording practices, as here I’m just another voice competing with a hundreds of voices that don’t know what the hell they’re talking about.

I know what best practices are... what is the right and wrong way to do something… when there is a clear right and wrong way. And when I'm asked I'm not going to ride the fence and try to please everyone... I'm going to tell you what I know. And after 30+ years of working in all areas of music recording I’ll be damned if I’m going to be humble about either.

I should write a book and charge for it. Instead I hang out on a couple web forums and give away my lifetime of music/recording experience for free… only to be raked by neophytes who’ve gleaned all they know from the web... and some have gotten a bit too big for their britches in the process, believing it’s that easy.

Wow. The sad thing is that all I can see right now is somebody with a chip on their shoulder...different than what I thought.

I won't apologize for having an opinon and expressing it, not that you're asking for that...just seems like you want to put somebody in their place. Hope that works for you.

I appreciate your contributions here very much. I appreciate the help you've provided me.

Maybe you should write a book because you certainly seem resentful about hanging out here with all the "children"...its obvious by your post you've got a lot of angst...didn't realize you saw this forum that way.

And this notion that a slaved DAW will have degraded sound quality is utter nonsense

Um...when did I say the DAW would have degraded sound quality? I DID say that I wouldn't be able to hear it.
 
Oh yeah...

And when I'm asked I'm not going to ride the fence and try to please everyone.

No kiddin'!

Good for you.

I won't either, but I do see the value in not jumping to one side of the fence when I can help people where they're at...maybe that chip is clouding what you used to be.

Oh...I guess I jumped to one side of the fence on that one didn't I?
 
I wrote a bunch of unproductive ranting here so I deleted it. It' not important.
 
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