RMGI 911 Shedding

hilltop studios

hilltop studios

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Recently there has been a lot of posts on various recording forums in regard to RMGI tape with shedding problems. I thought my recent experience would be good info to pass along so here goes.
Back in February I acquired a well used Tascam MS16 and after a lot of re-furb work (cleaning, replacing relays, calibration etc.) I started using the machine in some actual sessions a couple of weeks ago. An hour or so into the session I began noticing oxide building up on the tape path like I have never seen. Everything, guides, lifters, heads was coated with brown dust. Now back when I was doing calibration on the machine I had noticed a little oxide but at the time I didn't think it would be a problem. Also I could see my guides and lifters had some wear marks but that didn't seem abnormal considering my machines age and the fact it was used in a professional facility. Now however having to stop after every song or two and clean the tape path just wasn't going to work. Managed to get through those sessions and I was kinda baffled as to why I was having so much shed. I put a call into US Recording Media from whom I had purchased the one inch RMGI 911. The rep I spoke with wasn't aware of any problems with 911 but he put me in touch with a RMGI tech rep. I had a nice long conversation with him,(he actually walked me through the tape manufacture process :) Anyway basically here's what he told me.
If your machine has a lot of wear marks on guides, rollers, lifters etc or it has been fed Ampex/Quantegy 456 for most of it's life you will see more (possibly a lot) of shedding with RMGI. This is because of the slightly wider footprint of the tape. Ampex?Quantegy was purposely under-slit. Now if in the past you have used BASF/EMTEC 911 (on the same machine) with no shedding and now with RMGI you are seeing a lot of shedding then obviously something else is wrong because RMGI should be the same as the older BASF/Emtec. I have used Emtec 911 for years on my MSR-16 and I could run it all day and barely see any shed. However now with my MS16 and RMGI it was brown dust city. The rep asked me about my machine and I had to confess that yes I had wear marks on my guides and lifters (I could feel a slight edge in some places when running my fingernail across the surface) and yes the previous owners had always fed it Ampex. They had offered up a mountain of it to me when I bought the machine from them but that tape was all sticky shed. Also I should mention the machine had sat unused for years as well. OK I'm getting to the happy part are you still with me ?? :)
The RMGI rep suggested I try rotating the guides and lifters if possible, running some more tape and seeing if the shed was still excessive. I completed that last night, ran the same reels for hours and not a speck was to be found :) I know it's easy to jump on a new company (hey I was ready to demand new tape) especially after springing for 400+ dollars on a case of one inch. You might want to be sure it's not a machine issue first. I'm a happy camper, my MS16 is much happier and my experience with RMGI tells me they are a class company. I should also mention the rep wanted me to get back to him one way or another with the results and if I wasn't satisfied he would happily replace my tape. He also told me they did have issues with some 900 formula early on but he wasn't aware of any issues with 911. Hopefully this will help someone out there and calm a lot of folks who were criticizing RMGI. Regards, Dave
 
I got less shedding after rotating the guides, but I'm still getting some. I'm starting to wonder if the tape tension is set too high.
 
A stretched post. Does anybody know causes some posting tostretch out of view of the browser like that?

After I sent this it was back to normal. :confused:
 
EXCELLENT post Dave (hilltop studios). That's the exact thing which I posted a while ago, in another thread: https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=236608&page=1&pp=25&highlight=underslit

There are opposing views on this, one being that RMGI should have cut to the AMPEX / QUANTEGY standard, which was the most popular tape back in the day, at least for North America. That's a notable view but here's my problem with this....

AMPEX / QUANTEGY had slitting problems and thus it was decided to underslit (from a standard which was set, at least on paper) to address certain quality issues. People exclusively used these [poorly slit] tapes on their machines, many having grooves worn in them by the Ampex / Quantegy. The lifters, guides and heads were polished and cut into by the underslit tapes.

Why would RMGI, or any company for that matter, purposly undercut, which was obviously a poor quality issue, just to accomodate Ampex / Quantegy worn tape paths?

RMGI has got it right when it comes to quality issues, unlike Ampex / Quantegy and it seems so wrong to punish them for that by wrongly accusing them of poor tape manufacturing. One should rather look at his recorder's improperly maintained tape path before unfairly jumping on RMGI.

This, IMHO, is an unwarranted assault on RMGI.
 
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jpmorris said:
I got less shedding after rotating the guides, but I'm still getting some. I'm starting to wonder if the tape tension is set too high.
Click to expand...

Is anything else in the tape path cutting into the tape, like worn heads?
 
If were that easy…

And with all due respect to my good friend Daniel I still have reservations about RMGI, and will explain my perspective.

1. The “some people” that said RMGI should take established slitting width into consideration was one people -- me. The reason being there are no (or very few) new machines out there. Most will have wear from AMPEX/Qunatgey. Tape path wear is inevitable… just the nature of the beast. It’s only when it gets to an extreme that it requires relapping, turning parts, or replacement, etc. The advice from RMGI is standard advice.

Smooth surfaces will reduce shedding on any tape. However, don’t get caught comparing how much less the tape is shedding to how much it was shedding. Then of course it seems better. The standard by which one measures shedding should not be relative to a defective tape, but rather to a standard of excellence based on established performance of modern tape.

The word “Under-slit” is a spin by RMGI. The fact is, Quantegy was on the narrow side and the current RMGI is on the wide side. We could just as easily say RMGI is “Over-slit”… and make a better case for it based on precedent from the only tape company that was left standing a few years ago – Quantegy. You will see half-inch tape width specified in tape deck manufacturer literature as 12.5mm or 12.7mm. Is either specification “Right?” No, but a tape manufacturer that is trying to fill the shoes of a company that had become the de facto standard would do well to consider were they should fall in that range. For a manufacturer to stubbornly insist that 12.7mm is right in a world broken-in by 12.5mm is idiotic to say the least. ;)

2. RMGI has been replacing defective tape. If it is only a slitting width issue, replacement is an excersie in futility because the replacement is the same width and thus presents the same problem. So, there has to be something else they’re aware of that we're not. :cool:

3. “Marketeers” from EMTEC used to slam Quantegy’s slitting, or rather they used to tout their slitting as superior. However, most AMPEX/Quantegy is perfectly good (not counting the “Discount Tape era from 2005 - 2007”). It’s one thing to blame poor performance of Quantegy tape on Quantegy slitting. It’s quite another to blame poor performance of RMGI tape on Quantegy slitting. :eek: IMO, they’re passing the buck onto the dead, as it were.

4. The unprecedented price increase imposed by RMGI. True, it has nothing to do with tape quality, but everything to do with credibility and trust. It seems opportunistic to me. They slipped it by us in the fog and uncertainty surrounding Quantegy’s closure announcement. It wasn’t apparent to everyone at the time compared to Quantegy’s $100.00 per reel (half-inch), but now that the smoke has cleared it seems underhanded. All of this means RMGI has lost my respect, and thus I’m not inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt over and over again. :mad:

5. I primarily use AMPEX/Quantegy. None of my new-old-stock AGFA, BASF or EMTEC sheds. None of my AMPEX or Quantegy sheds or misbehaves in any way on any of my machines. The only tape that has caused path travel problems for me was 3M 226, which was known to have batches that were too wide “Over-slit.” :eek: Years ago 3M/Scotch had to replace a boatload to studios around the country because of this error.

Bad batches happen… they always have. What matters is how a manufacturer or vendor responds to an issue when it arises. RMGI’s post-incident conduct does not rise to a level of responsibility and trustworthiness I am comfortable with. :(

I should add... my current perspective is not terminal. Things could change… RMGI could redeem themselves. I won’t buy new RMGI at the price it is now, and I don’t have time to screw around with buying and having to return tape. I’ll let you guys do that until I get the all clear. :p

:)
 
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I emailed RMGI head office, with a link to this thread, along with some suggestions, one of them being that they should participate in the discussions. Well, we'll see what happens.... :confused: ;)
 
Hehe, I can't wait to see who will create the user ID RMGI and start messing with us. :D
 
One other thing, as some of you already know I was given early samples of RMGI 911 and 468 tape to test and it passed with flying colors. I was positive and giddy at the time. I initially stuck my neck out for RMGI and I don't take that lightly. For those of us that believe a good name is better than great riches (Proverbs 22:1) we have the most to lose when a company we have endorsed pulls the rug out from under us. We naturally feel the most let down and the most angry. Just ask any Republican. The spew from moveon.org is nothing compared to the white-knukled rage of the party faithful… as it should be.

The powers that be don’t need a cheering section; they need people to keep them honest. They are in business for profit. They don’t love us or care about us beyond that.

It would be nice to think they are standing shoulder to shoulder with us in some analog cause, but I doubt that it goes any deeper than marketing hype... telling us what we want to hear.

Odds are in a dying movement, whether political or otherwise, there will be many opportunists. They thrive in an environment made up primarily of die-hard cause types like me. They feed off our devotion for their own personal gain, like any 2-bit TV preacher.

Just be aware of it, because that business model is short-lived by design and can only hope to bring in lots of cash, and fast before it all comes crashing down.

Also keep in mind; I’m not selling anything. There is no other tape company to favor. What I’m saying is genuinely how I feel about it all.
 
Beck said:
If were that easy…

And with all due respect to my good friend Daniel I still have reservations about RMGI, and will explain my perspective.

1. The “some people” that said RMGI should take established slitting width into consideration was one people -- me. The reason being there are no (or very few) new machines out there. Most will have wear from AMPEX/Qunatgey. Tape path wear is inevitable… just the nature of the beast. It’s only when it gets to an extreme that it requires relapping, turning parts, or replacement, etc. The advice from RMGI is standard advice.

Smooth surfaces will reduce shedding on any tape. However, don’t get caught comparing how much less the tape is shedding to how much it was shedding. Then of course it seems better. The standard by which one measures shedding should not be relative to a defective tape, but rather to a standard of excellence based on established performance of modern tape.

The word “Under-slit” is a spin by RMGI. The fact is, Quantegy was on the narrow side and the current RMGI is on the wide side. We could just as easily say RMGI is “Over-slit”… and make a better case for it based on precedent from the only tape company that was left standing a few years ago – Quantegy. You will see half-inch tape width specified in tape deck manufacturer literature as 12.5mm or 12.7mm. Is either specification “Right?” No, but a tape manufacturer that is trying to fill the shoes of a company that had become the de facto standard would do well to consider were they should fall in that range. For a manufacturer to stubbornly insist that 12.7mm is right in a world broken-in by 12.5mm is idiotic to say the least. ;)

2. RMGI has been replacing defective tape. If it is only a slitting width issue, replacement is an excersie in futility because the replacement is the same width and thus presents the same problem. So, there has to be something else they’re aware of that we're not. :cool:

3. “Marketeers” from EMTEC used to slam Quantegy’s slitting, or rather they used to tout their slitting as superior. However, most AMPEX/Quantegy is perfectly good (not counting the “Discount Tape era from 2005 - 2007”). It’s one thing to blame poor performance of Quantegy tape on Quantegy slitting. It’s quite another to blame poor performance of RMGI tape on Quantegy slitting. :eek: IMO, they’re passing the buck onto the dead, as it were.

4. The unprecedented price increase imposed by RMGI. True, it has nothing to do with tape quality, but everything to do with credibility and trust. It seems opportunistic to me. They slipped it by us in the fog and uncertainty surrounding Quantegy’s closure announcement. It wasn’t apparent to everyone at the time compared to Quantegy’s $100.00 per reel (half-inch), but now that the smoke has cleared it seems underhanded. All of this means RMGI has lost my respect, and thus I’m not inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt over and over again. :mad:

5. I primarily use AMPEX/Quantegy. None of my new-old-stock AGFA, BASF or EMTEC sheds. None of my AMPEX or Quantegy sheds or misbehaves in any way on any of my machines. The only tape that has caused path travel problems for me was 3M 226, which was known to have batches that were too wide “Over-slit.” :eek: Years ago 3M/Scotch had to replace a boatload to studios around the country because of this error.

Bad batches happen… they always have. What matters is how a manufacturer or vendor responds to an issue when it arises. RMGI’s post-incident conduct does not rise to a level of responsibility and trustworthiness I am comfortable with. :(

I should add... my current perspective is not terminal. Things could change… RMGI could redeem themselves. I won’t buy new RMGI at the price it is now, and I don’t have time to screw around with buying and having to return tape. I’ll let you guys do that until I get the all clear. :p

:)
Click to expand...

Reguardless of the small width difference, if tape paths are messed up, it should be fixed by rotating/head re-lapping. I have 2 fostex e-16s that were exclusively run with AMPEX/Quantagy tape all of their lives. I just checked them with RMG tape and have no problems at all. If a machine were grooved bad enough to shed new tape, the machine needs to be fixed. You can't blame the tape for this. I still have no idea why you seem to think the price is way too high. I just bought 2 reels of 1/2" tape from RMG and they were $63 per reel. Quantagy was the same price last year. I don't remember ever paying less than $50 ever (even back in the 80s). Where are you getting your pricing from? What price have you been quoted?
 
Nope, Quantegy half-inch tape last year was about $50.00 on the high side (not counting goofballs like Musicians Friend and zZounds, which you can’t take seriously), and $41.00 on the low side. It was coming down just as it should have once Quantegy began rolling again.

Before the tape panic of '05 the low was $36.00. If you paid more than $30.00 for a reel of half-inch in the 80's you didn’t know where to look and were being ripped off, probably by a local music store with a huge mark-up... that I can believe. The going rate back then from a mail order outlet was $27.00 for half-inch.

I had a local store that would always want to charge me two prices if I was in a bind. They weren't a serious tape vendor... just had some around for us just in case. There were a lot like that. :)

But ancient history of pricing is irrelevant in this instance. The average price of tape has risen by 50% in less than one year. That’s the issue. It should make anyone with the most rudimentary knowledge of economics sit up and take notice. This is all about real numbers based on statistics, not individual observations from a handful of people that have always over paid for expendables.

I had no less than 10 bookmarks for vendors that were selling 456 half-inch for between $41.00 and $44.00 last year.

Too many people have reported RMGI shedding for it to be user error, and many of the people that have reported it and are discussing it on various forums have been around a long time, and know what they’re doing. They don’t need any “Tips” on machine maintenance. And as I pointed out in my long-winded post above… RMGI has acknowledged a problem and have replaced the offending tape at customer request, so there is no debate about that.

When one examines a phenomenon one must use sound survey and analysis methods. Even if most people aren’t experiencing problems that doesn’t support the conclusion that there are no problems.

If you don’t understand how to interpret statistical data you can come up with some amusing conclusions. For example, 39% of all traffic fatalities in the US involve alcohol or other substance causing impairment. That means the other 61% involve sober drivers. I suppose then that the other 61% should start driving drunk to improve their chances of not getting killed in an accident, right? :eek: :D
 
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Beck said:
I suppose then that the other 61% should start driving drunk to improve their chances of not getting killed in an accident, right? :eek: :D
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That's what they do in Europe :D You can't go to the Berlin Zoo or movie theater without having a beer :p
 
Great to see everyone jumping in on this thread and expressing their feelings.
Beck, I respect your feelings in regard to this issue. I would like to add a little more info in regard to the bad batch(s) of RMGI. The tech rep I spoke with told me they involved only the 900 formula and they were early runs of the product. Slitting was not the cause of the excess shedding in this case. They determined the problem was created by insufficient drying times during the initial manufacture of the product. He explained to me that initially the tape starts out in giant rolls approx 10 feet wide and thousands of feet in length.(I forget the exact dimensions he mentioned) Before the slitting takes place there is a drying process and the company determined that the product near the center of the giant roll wasn't getting enough drying time. The product near the edges was fine. I'm not up on the entire tape creation process but perhaps this insufficient drying effected how the oxide particles adhered to the tape ?? Anyway the point here is they are not claiming slitting problems are the cause of the excess shedding otherwise yes you’re correct what would be the point of replacing customers tape. In regard to your idea about why not say RMGI is over slitting consider the fact that I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) they purchased the entire mass of equipment from Emtec that they used to manufacture tape and then moved the operation to I believe Holland ? So basically the tape is being slit the same way it was before (probably the same as when it was BASF too). Why would they want to change that ? I also used both Quantegy and Emtec on my MSR16 for years but gradually became more of an Emtec fan simply because of the way the tape spooled so perfectly and (laugh if you want) I really liked those plastic hold down bands with the velcro that came with their product. I never had shedding problems with either tape but it did seem like there was less oxide build up with Emtec. When I first purchased that machine I rotated the guides because they had pretty deep wear marks. I have used that machine for about 9 years, the first two with only Quantegy then gradually more and more Emtec. Presently I can't see any wear marks on the guides so perhaps that’s why it performs well with either tape in regard to shedding. I believe if I was to purchase a roll of RMGI for it, it would perform just like Emtec. I have not purchased any tape for it recently as I plan to sell it now that I acquired my MS16. The MS16 was a different story as the previous owner had only used Ampex/Quantegy. As soon as I tried to feed it RMGI even though the wear marks on the guides and lifters weren’t that pronounced the tape still shed like crazy. Rotating my guides fixed it and all seems well. The point here I guess is it seeems machine history and how it's been maintained are primary factors. The two tapes are different. They have always been different and probably always will. Not a lot of folks (me included) knew that so the natural thought was, gee what's up with this RMGI tape ? By the way the RMGI tech I spoke with is Phil Paske. I see he has signed on over at the sluts forum and responded to some threads. I mentioned home recording forum to him so perhaps he will sign on here as well. Beck, again thanks for your input. Your knowledge on all the various tape formulations blows me away and I highly respect your thoughts and feelings. This is all good stuff coming out so hopefully RMGI and ATR will see there are a lot of folks very passionate about analog tape. Regards and thanks to all who have contributed so far :) Dave
 
Well, I got an answer from 1 guy so far who takes care of his machines like I do.

"No problems with RMG here. Runs clean and true on our Studer A820's which have had every type of stock run on them in the course of the last 15 years. "

I will keep digging as I suspect that machine maintenence has everything to do with this shedding problem.
 
MCI2424 said:
I will keep digging as I suspect that machine maintenence has everything to do with this shedding problem.
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I wouldn't be surprised, however the fact remains that on my machine 456 doesn't shed and 911 does, or at least the first roll did. I haven't tried the others or the 1/4" yet.

That logically means that it is easier for the oxide to come off, which suggests to me that the tape may possibly be more fragile in the longer term.
I'm not going to stop buying it, though.
 
jpmorris said:
I wouldn't be surprised, however the fact remains that on my machine 456 doesn't shed and 911 does, or at least the first roll did. I haven't tried the others or the 1/4" yet.

That logically means that it is easier for the oxide to come off, which suggests to me that the tape may possibly be more fragile in the longer term.
I'm not going to stop buying it, though.
Click to expand...

The first thing to do is find out where it is shedding. Look at the edges.
 
Perhaps the SM900 was a curing time issue. The pigment has to cure just like paint, but RMGI have said in no uncertain terms that the SM911 was shedding because of width differences between 456 and 911.

Also, everyone should be aware that all tape sheds more at the edges to whatever degree that given tape sheds… and all tape sheds oxide to some degree. However, there is a point at which excessive shedding will interfere with the recording/reproduce process, causing audible dropouts and/or an overall reduction in high frequencies. Not to mention accelerated wear of the tape path, including the heads. People have valid concerns for their aging machines.

At the risk of offending everyone here (all at once this time, I mean), I must say no one could possibly have cleaner, better maintained machines than I do, so that’s not the issue either. My clean obsession, complete with micro vacuums, filtered compressed air, and all the various solvents and polishes in concert with a strict maintenance regimen that rivals anyone’s dedication to their respective religion goes back to my A/V days of the late ‘70s. In fact I took some good-natured ribbing for, “over doing it” in my personal studios going back to the ‘80s. All in good fun, but not everyone understood what all the fuss was about. Old friends understand now in retrospect looking at my 20-year-old machines that appear they’ve never been used.

But you don’t have to be a maintenance superman and most professionals and serious home recordidsts that I know are well aware of maintenance concerns. It’s quite clear that RMGI’s explanations cannot account for everyone’s issues with the questionable batches of tape. Yes, there are many people that have a lot to learn about everything analog, but for those of us that have been there and done that, we sure as hell don’t like to be patronized, which only adds insult to injury. The bottom line from RMGI seems to be “It’s your fault, or Quantegy’s fault…anyone’s fault but RMGI’s fault.” That’s what I’m hearing.

The early samples of RMGI SM911 didn’t shed. BASF and EMTEC SM911 didn’t shed. What are they doing or not doing now that changed the tape properties? More importantly what will they do to correct it?
 
So, I checked my post at PSW and got many more responses. RMGI has no shedding issues on properly maintained and aligned machines. Unless the 2" stuff is different from the 1/2" stuff (both made from the exact same roll) then the machine's health and headwear is the offender here.

Until I hear a single pro say otherwise, have your heads re-lapped and guides turned.
 
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