Right to Repair

It's a bigger issue than home appliances.
When a farmer spends 500k on John Deere machinery and has no option but to use on-site John Deere service mechanics.
No access to codes,software,parts,mandatory service schedules etc...
Could cost thousands to reset the "check engine light" for no good reason.

Oh,and I fixed both my fridge and furnace over the holidays for under $100.
Just to get a technician to the door will cost a $100.
Yes,the one lady was bewildered why I wanted to fix my own fridge when looking for a part.

G

Or the "shadow work" thing.Tuning your clients instruments for them?

How Much Time Do You Spend Doing Shadow Work?
 
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It's a bigger issue than home appliances.
When a farmer spends 500k on John Deere machinery and has no option but to use on-site John Deere service mechanics.
No access to codes,software,parts,mandatory service schedules etc...
Could cost thousands to reset the "check engine light" for no good reason.

Oh,and I fixed both my fridge and furnace over the holidays for under $100.
Just to get a technician to the door will cost a $100.
Yes,the one lady was bewildered why I wanted to fix my own fridge when looking for a part.

G

Or the "shadow work" thing.Tuning your clients instruments for them?

How Much Time Do You Spend Doing Shadow Work?

There is a saying over here "You never see a farmer on a bike" Not quite so apt now perhaps with the way supermarkets screw them and things like F&M but talking of 1/2 mill tractor gear is rather "ad absurdium". The R2R law would be I thnk aimed the millions of "ordinary" consumers who junk $200 gear for the want of a $50 repair.

Once again, UK experience might differ for farmers? We have the quite powerful NFU lobby and I bet they would be "speaking to" people like John Deere if they thought their members were being disabused. Then, "$100 for a tech' callout"? Canada is a big place. Over here I think £50 for a pro tech call to a studio would be very common. Much the same for a domestic service call. I did not work for free! Cars, vans, petrol costs.

(looked at that Shadow link. Want me to sign up. Did not like it. what's it all about?)

Dave.
 
There is a saying over here "You never see a farmer on a bike" Not quite so apt now perhaps with the way supermarkets screw them and things like F&M but talking of 1/2 mill tractor gear is rather "ad absurdium". The R2R law would be I thnk aimed the millions of "ordinary" consumers who junk $200 gear for the want of a $50 repair.

Once again, UK experience might differ for farmers? We have the quite powerful NFU lobby and I bet they would be "speaking to" people like John Deere if they thought their members were being disabused. Then, "$100 for a tech' callout"? Canada is a big place. Over here I think £50 for a pro tech call to a studio would be very common. Much the same for a domestic service call. I did not work for free! Cars, vans, petrol costs.

(looked at that Shadow link. Want me to sign up. Did not like it. what's it all about?)

Dave.

We have a saying over here "Sorry".
Little different over here.
Pound 50 can be 100 CDN depending on the day.
Sorry you didn't like the link.You do you.

Peace

G
 
For those interested in the pervasiveness of planned obsolescence, there's a great documentary online called "The light bulb conspiracy".
It's quite fascinating and centers around a tale of this guy wanting to 'repair' rather than replace his printer. He encounters all manner of obstacles. It so turns out that there is nothing wrong with the printer other than an eprom chip being programed to cease working after x amount of copies.
The documentary goes into how far back planned obsolescence goes, legislation to keep its so, etc.

Sorry, I can't post a link on my phone, for the benefit of the lazy people. ;) But if you're interested it can be easily found.
:D
 
My tv failed one week before the warranty was up. Samsung fixed it for free.
They tried to sell me an extended warranty. I declined.
Now I can buy a totally new better tv for the price of the extra warranty.
Even if it had failed again the difference between newer tv and the warranty price would have cost me a minimal amount to have an upgraded tv.

In short too many things that are electronic are becoming so much cheaper so fast that fixing them makes no sense.
 
My tv failed one week before the warranty was up. Samsung fixed it for free.
They tried to sell me an extended warranty. I declined.
Now I can buy a totally new better tv for the price of the extra warranty.
Even if it had failed again the difference between newer tv and the warranty price would have cost me a minimal amount to have an upgraded tv.

In short too many things that are electronic are becoming so much cheaper so fast that fixing them makes no sense.

It makes HUGE sense to fix things! For one thing, new products are largely built by robots (except for some VERY boring packing jobs where it is not considered economic and so they pay some poor sod shit to do it and they can because it is the only job left). A factory full of robots only makes money for the owners and shareholders. Making things repairable means employing trained technicians at decent rates. There also needs to be an infrastructure of the supply of parts and information. In my day the service industry gave valuable feedback to mnfctrs about faults so that they could improve products incrementally. This also added to safety as the fire hazard with that tumble dryer e.g. would have been found and fed back before 100,000 were shipped out!

But the biggest "sense" is to the fucking PLANET! We cannot go on plundering Earth's resources ad inf. Then, it takes FAR more energy and thus C02 to make a new telly/printer..di da than to fix a current one.

There are good guys about. I have a "serious readers" lamp. They are expensive but the company offered me an upgrade from incandescent to LED for about £40 inc shipping. That was a few years ago and it seems the LED assy has failed. I emailed the company* and THE SAME DAY got a telephone call on my landline** Spoke to a very nice chap and he is shipping me out a new LED unit. Free!

*email address on the product! How many companies make contact via email THAT simple?
**I only gave him my mobile number but missed his call so he looked up my sales history and found my landline #. HOW many firms give that level of service these days?

Dave.
 
There are good guys about. I have a "serious readers" lamp. They are expensive but the company offered me an upgrade from incandescent to LED for about £40 inc shipping. That was a few years ago and it seems the LED assy has failed. I emailed the company* and THE SAME DAY got a telephone call on my landline** Spoke to a very nice chap and he is shipping me out a new LED unit. Free!.

But neither you nor they repaired the failed assembly?
 
But neither you nor they repaired the failed assembly?

Oh sorry! I did not make it clear, The LED assembly is a bi-pin "bulb" similar to those in LED track lighting about 50mm diameter. My point is not that the device is repairable so much as the service that I got from the company. Service, easily accessed, fast and expert help is key to getting things repaired.

Dave.
 
Oh sorry! I did not make it clear, The LED assembly is a bi-pin "bulb" similar to those in LED track lighting about 50mm diameter. My point is not that the device is repairable so much as the service that I got from the company. Service, easily accessed, fast and expert help is key to getting things repaired.

Dave.

Understood. However, I found it somewhat ironic that you used, as an example of good service, an event that is the hot topic, i.e. the amount of non-repairable equipment being manufactured.
 
Understood. However, I found it somewhat ironic that you used, as an example of good service, an event that is the hot topic, i.e. the amount of non-repairable equipment being manufactured.

No, I don't get that? "Bulbs" have never been repairable! Had the lamp failed in some other way, a wire broken in the goose neck say I could have shipped the lamp back and had it repaired, with most stuff these days it goes in the WEE bin and you have to buy another one.

Dave.
 
There's now a new attempt at the right-to-repair legistlation in California, hoping for better luck this time around:
Eggman Introduces Legislation Establishing the Right to Repair | Official Website - Assemblymember Susan Eggman Representing the 13th California Assembly District

:thumbs up:

California is a long, long way from where I live but their legistlation has a funny way of reflecting globally. For example, AIUI it was California legistlation which required furniture industry to stuff residential sofas full of flame retardants, in many cases globally. And more recently, when the requirement was dropped in California, we can now buy non-toxic sofas on the other side of the world in Finland too. Yay :D
 
There's now a new attempt at the right-to-repair legistlation in California, hoping for better luck this time around:
Eggman Introduces Legislation Establishing the Right to Repair | Official Website - Assemblymember Susan Eggman Representing the 13th California Assembly District

:thumbs up:

California is a long, long way from where I live but their legistlation has a funny way of reflecting There's now a new attempt at the right-to-repair legist ation in California, hoping for better luck this time around:

Eggman Introduces Legislation Establishing the Right to Repair | Official Website - Assemblymember Susan Eggman Representing the 13th California Assembly District

This would be a disaster for everyone.

It is cheaper better faster more efficient to make things the way they are instead of the way they did in the 1890s

autos should be repaired
your 10$ gadget bought at the drugstore should not

the concept of LRU - least repairable unit applies here in spades with massively integrated electronics now

how small an item is it feasible economically to repair and stock parts for?

a car is too big, an engine bolt too small. go to the hardware store for a bolt.
ditto spark plugs.

easy to replace items may be reasonable like serpentine belts and other easily accessed items.
so for those a manual might be worth having available.
IF YOU REALLY WANTED TO BUY IT AND THE PARTS AND DISASSEMBLE YOUR ENGINES ADJACENT COMPONENTS SO YOU COULD PUT YOUR BELT ON YOURSELF.
for most of us it makes more sense to let the dealer do it or a local garage if you trust them to do it right.

the engine is not worth repairing. you replace them.

this law would be a disaster as it is written. it would force people to stop selling in california.
they would have to import illegal items from other states and hope the thought police didnt catch them
 
I don't know the ramifications of the proposed law in California Mr Average but at 73 I have been in retail electronics servicing half my life and manufacturers always squeal stick pig when they are required to do anything that will have a percieved impact on their profits. I can give to two examples about 25 years apart.
1) When transistors began to surplant valves in audio equipment we, the long suffering service chappy was deluged with complaints of radio breakthrough. Churches had foul mouthed taxi drivers breaking into the PA. For many years we complained. Mnfctrs, the rather better ones would come out with mods, even in some cases send out an engineer. What they would NOT do is fit the $0.1 priced filter components into every device. "Not economically possible".
Eventually we did get ENG regulation and things are far better these days, though not perfect.

2) UK has an almost unique fused 13 amp three pole mains plug and it is of course essential that it is fitted correctly and with the correct fuse rating (there is only two, 3A and 13A) Safety campaingers battled for decades to get plugs fitted to product at factory. " Not economically possible, it would decimate the UK electronics and domestic electrical industry. Eventually though the law was passed. No great crumbling of the industry followed. There was however a distinct drop in electrocutions and fires!

Yes, modern SMT makes certain electronic parts uneconomical to repair (the internals of a capacitor mic say) but that has always been the case for certain products. What we want however is for those "modules" to be available to bona fide techs at reasonable cost. That presently does not happen and large pieces of kit are skipped for the want of a $10 part.

A very great deal of the world are just greedy, uncaring bastards. Have the kids started walking out of school in your manor? They will if the daft, greedy adults don't soon get their act together.

#Can't go on thinking nothing's wrong.....#

Dave.
 
I don't know the ramifications of the proposed law in California Mr Average but at 73 I have been in retail electronics servicing half my life and manufacturers always squeal stick pig when they are required to do anything that will have a percieved impact on their profits. I can give to two examples about 25 years apart.
1) When transistors began to surplant valves in audio equipment we, the long suffering service chappy was deluged with complaints of radio breakthrough. Churches had foul mouthed taxi drivers breaking into the PA. For many years we complained. Mnfctrs, the rather better ones would come out with mods, even in some cases send out an engineer. What they would NOT do is fit the $0.1 priced filter components into every device. "Not economically possible".
Eventually we did get ENG regulation and things are far better these days, though not perfect.

2) UK has an almost unique fused 13 amp three pole mains plug and it is of course essential that it is fitted correctly and with the correct fuse rating (there is only two, 3A and 13A) Safety campaingers battled for decades to get plugs fitted to product at factory. " Not economically possible, it would decimate the UK electronics and domestic electrical industry. Eventually though the law was passed. No great crumbling of the industry followed. There was however a distinct drop in electrocutions and fires!

Yes, modern SMT makes certain electronic parts uneconomical to repair (the internals of a capacitor mic say) but that has always been the case for certain products. What we want however is for those "modules" to be available to bona fide techs at reasonable cost. That presently does not happen and large pieces of kit are skipped for the want of a $10 part.

A very great deal of the world are just greedy, uncaring bastards. Have the kids started walking out of school in your manor? They will if the daft, greedy adults don't soon get their act together.

#Can't go on thinking nothing's wrong.....#

Dave.

You mixed apples and oranges not to mention cummerbunds and kumquats.


It is the overall cost that is lower to the consumer. You think they are greedy but if they have to spend more to stock parts that wont be used then they will charge you for them the next time you buy your cheap electronic gadget and then you will be complaining how expensive it is.

I heard my neighbors CB set in my landline phone. Would it make sense for ma bell to add a part to every phone to fix the few that had a problem? Nope. I put in a disk cap and problem solved easy and cheap without getting my BP up too high fulminating about it.

Once I heard the state cop on his radio through my FM when we were stopped at a traffic light.
Should we have some law that telefunken change all their radios to stop such things ?
California is nutball crazy about fixing non problems by throwing our money at them.
 
I am just reminded. Many years ago TVs (CRT jobs) had a tin box about the size of 20 fags at the front end where the UHF aerial plugged in.
Called a "Tuner" it amplified and converted the multiple frequencies into one "Intermediate Frequency". It was a wee box of precision electronics and virtually unrepairable without very expensive test gear. They did go wrong. Did we then chuck a £300 telly in the skip? Did we bollocks! While current you could get a replacement tuner from the maker but then an industry grew up which would supply a service replacement by return.

Lots of parts of lots of things were available in this way BUT! The design of the original equipment had to allow for reasonably easy access for repair and the provision of service documentation. We did it then. We MUST start doing it again.

Dave.
 
You mixed apples and oranges not to mention cummerbunds and kumquats.


It is the overall cost that is lower to the consumer. You think they are greedy but if they have to spend more to stock parts that wont be used then they will charge you for them the next time you buy your cheap electronic gadget and then you will be complaining how expensive it is.

I heard my neighbors CB set in my landline phone. Would it make sense for ma bell to add a part to every phone to fix the few that had a problem? Nope. I put in a disk cap and problem solved easy and cheap without getting my BP up too high fulminating about it.

Once I heard the state cop on his radio through my FM when we were stopped at a traffic light.
Should we have some law that telefunken change all their radios to stop such things ?
California is nutball crazy about fixing non problems by throwing our money at them.

I am mixing nothing. It is not JUST the manfctrs and shareholder that are greedy, it is also the tightfisted public. So long as people chase the "best deal" and save a cent here or there the problems will persists.

Please do not attempt to teach me about Radio Frequency Interference or the remedies for it. I spent most of my working life sorting such problems.

I live quite close to two towns, Rugby and Daventry. Both had very powerful MF transmitters. So long as the populationhad valve radios and record players all was fine. Then the Silicon transistor came along and EVERYONE that had a new radio got the breakthough (we got another dose years later with the Rubber duck brigade) .

Making equipment, ANY equipment that cannot perform properly in the enviroment it finds itself in is BAD design. Yes, any amplifier, even valved will detect and reproduce RF if the field strength is high enough but it should not do so where previous designs were RFI immune in the same locality.

Dave.
 
I am mixing nothing. It is not JUST the manfctrs and shareholder that are greedy, it is also the tightfisted public. So long as people chase the "best deal" and save a cent here or there the problems will persists.

Please do not attempt to teach me about Radio Frequency Interference or the remedies for it. I spent most of my working life sorting such problems.

I live quite close to two towns, Rugby and Daventry. Both had very powerful MF transmitters. So long as the populationhad valve radios and record players all was fine. Then the Silicon transistor came along and EVERYONE that had a new radio got the breakthough (we got another dose years later with the Rubber duck brigade) .

Making equipment, ANY equipment that cannot perform properly in the enviroment it finds itself in is BAD design. Yes, any amplifier, even valved will detect and reproduce RF if the field strength is high enough but it should not do so where previous designs were RFI immune in the same locality.

Dave.

Without greed there would be nobody in business.

Competition is what limits greed from being unreasonable.
Interference like right to repair is what makes it all more expensive.

Perfection is not possible and it costs to much to make everything meet everybodys wishes.
People prefer cheaper prices to high priced crap that can be repaired.
 
I am just reminded. Many years ago TVs (CRT jobs) had a tin box about the size of 20 fags at the front end where the UHF aerial plugged in.
Called a "Tuner" it amplified and converted the multiple frequencies into one "Intermediate Frequency". It was a wee box of precision electronics and virtually unrepairable without very expensive test gear. They did go wrong. Did we then chuck a £300 telly in the skip? Did we bollocks! While current you could get a replacement tuner from the maker but then an industry grew up which would supply a service replacement by return.

Lots of parts of lots of things were available in this way BUT! The design of the original equipment had to allow for reasonably easy access for repair and the provision of service documentation. We did it then. We MUST start doing it again.

Dave.


We cannot afford to do it that way.
The cheap providers without repair would put them out of business quickly.

If you had to make things fixable everything would cost a lot more and some things would be impossible to make at all to suit the fruits and nuts in california.
 
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