Reel To Reel sync speeds

C

corganb

New member
Hi,

I have a Tascam TSR 8 reel to reel. It records at 15ips... is this speed consistent or does it drift? Will I have to stripe SMPTE and sync via a box to obtain precise sync?

Also... beginner question... how do I "stripe" to track 8? Is there a specific tone or click generated from a outside box?
 
corganb said:
Hi,

I have a Tascam TSR 8 reel to reel. It records at 15ips... is this speed consistent or does it drift? Will I have to stripe SMPTE and sync via a box to obtain precise sync?
Click to expand...
All things drift. Soundcards will drift, digital or no. So basically, yes, you'll need some kind of sync unit. To answer the question more fully, we'd need to know exactly what you're trying to do as there are several different strategies for different purposes.

Also... beginner question... how do I "stripe" to track 8? Is there a specific tone or click generated from a outside box?
Click to expand...
It's a stream of data. If you ever had a computer like the C64 or ZX Spectrum that had to load games from cassette tape, you probably have a good idea of what it sounds like.

If not:

...turn the volume down first!

And yes, you will probably need a generator. I have heard that Reaper and a couple of other programs can generate and even read SMPTE timecode in software, but generally the sync box can do everything.

On the TSR-8, you arm track 8 THEN press sync-lock before recording the timecode - this defeats the DBX noise reduction on track 8 which can damage the timecode if left on.

Now. There are generally three strategies for synchronization:

1. You want to record a MIDI sequence track-by-track. In this case, the TSR-8 is master and the computer is slave.
A basic timecode box like the Rees TS-1 or Cooper PPS will do. It outputs the timecode as an MTC signal via MIDI, the sequencer will lock against that.

2. You want to synchronize the deck against digital audio like Protools or a standalone DAW. You can use the above strategy for that, though some people see to prefer making the TSR-8 the slave. To have the TSR-8 chase the computer, you will need a more expensive and rare TASCAM box like the MTS-1000 Midiizer. The TimeLine Lynx mk2 or above should also work.

3. You want to synchronize two decks together. That will require either the Midiizer or an ATS-500. It might be possible to get it to sync via the Ampex parallel protocol but I haven't had much luck with that approach. Again, the Lynx mk2 can probably do this if you can get the cables built.
 
More specifically I'm looking to sync by TSR 8 to Pro Tools LE. I aim to do this so I may track to the tape, then digitize for editing/mixing. I feel that if I can digitize at master/slave lock precision, then I can have an unlimited amount of analog originated tracks put into Pro Tools. With no drift.
 
Hey Corgan,
you've probably figured out by now, you need a JL Cooper PPS-2 (wolf's option 1), I am trying to do the same thing...
 
and this has not worked, it drifts...at least you can sync the tsr-8 w/ MTS-1000 or ATS-500, and make PT the master. I have an 80-8 w/ no sync capabilties for slaving...I'm interested to know what you've come up with...
 
While I do lock my tape deck to my DAW via SMPTE/MTC...in reality, if your deck has a solid, stable transport/internal clocking mechanism...who cares about making it sync directly to the DAW! ;)

Here's the way to look at it.
If you slap a click on one track of your deck and then record on the other seven tracks, those tracks and the click will all be in time...right?
Now...dump the seven tracks AND click track into the DAW.

Go back to the deck and erase the seven music tracks, but leave the click.

Now record seven more tracks and again, just dump them and the click (again) into the DAW...no need to worry about synchronizing to the existing seven DAW tracks...just dump as close as you can to the other tracks.
Once in they are all in the DAW, group-select either the first eight or the second eight and just drag/align them to the other eight tracks, using the click tracks as an easy visual guide.

Keep in mind that your song tempo is always the MAIN "sync" of any song...right?
So if you just play it the same way, using the same tempo (the click track guarantees that)...the song will always start and end the same, and will always be the same length and speed… your sync will be no worse than any 5-6 guys playing together in a band. :D
And even if your deck slowly changes it's speed a bit as the tape winds from one real to the other...it will do it relatively the same amount every time, since you are going to record each group from the same point on the tape.

Of course after 3 maybe 4 dumps (that's 21-28 music tracks), you want to stop...but if you use good tape, it will withstand those passes...and after 3-4 dumps, you've probably gotten as many tracks as you'll need for most Rock/Pop tunes.

Finally, if you do notice a bit of drift towards the end of the song between any of the groups...well, just use the click tracks and cut/adjust as needed.
Just make sure to keep each of your 8-track dumps grouped, so that way, if you have to cut/adjust, you will do it across all the tracks from any one group.

My deck has a very stable, microprocessor controlled transport…but I’m not sure how stable the TSR-8 is...?...but hey, give it a try. I mean, you are already having sync issues trying to lock to the DAW…so just take that out of the equation, and see how stable the deck is by itself. All you need to do is align the tracks after the dumps.

Am I way off base here…?
 
yes, but then you cannot Record along w/ the first 7 tracks...I want to hear them off PT when I record the second group of 7 back onto the 80-8, so both transports have to sync speed-wise, I have done something close to what you have described - and edited - very cumbersome...
 
sirjuggs said:
yes, but then you cannot Record along w/ the first 7 tracks...I want to hear them off PT when I record the second group of 7 back onto the 80-8, so both transports have to sync speed-wise, I have done something close to what you have described - and edited - very cumbersome...
Click to expand...

Why not just drop a rough mix of the first seven onto one track of your deck to use as a scratch track and also drop the previously recorded click back on the deck...then you still have six empty tracks to record on and you use that click as your guide.

You can do that easy enough.
 
Again...all tracks will always follow the same tempo, and the click track helps keep that honest.
As you dump your tracks back, you are also dumping back the click track each time, as I outlined originally.
A song that is 4:38 in time/length will be that same time/length no matter how many tracks you do or how many dumps you make....just stay with the click for tempo timing.

I've used the method, so it does work...you just align your 2-3 track dumps (always keep each dump as a group) and the click tracks in each dump will help with that, but just zoom-in, find the leading edge of the first beat for each click track in each group…and align them. Once in the DAW...you can toss away the rough scratch track mixes...and when you get all the groups aligned, toss the click tracks...but keep one until you are totally done editing/comping (it can be quite handy).

Worst case, you may need to tighten up the tracks/groups in spots, but that’s mostly if they drift away from the click while you are playing/recording...but that should not be much of an issue and will be dictated by the quality of your playing to the click and any tape transport anomalies, not any sync issues between DAW and deck.
The DAW will be stable on its own because it has an internal clock....so if the deck is stable, they really don't need to be synchronized to each other…just align the tracks.
Again, it's the same tempo, the same relative section of tape, the same click beat...so you are just aligning tracks that are all the same length in time (4:38), and not "synchronizing" the deck and DAW.

And if you do have some sort of external sync box...even if you have trouble synchronizing the deck and DAW, the sync box can help keep your deck really stable, more so than just the internal servo.
 
sirjuggs said:
and this has not worked, it drifts...at least you can sync the tsr-8 w/ MTS-1000 or ATS-500, and make PT the master. I have an 80-8 w/ no sync capabilties for slaving...I'm interested to know what you've come up with...
Click to expand...

I've always used my TSR-8 and other ATR's as the master with SMPTE/MTC driving the DAW. No drift... no major problems. I've used this method with PT 5, Cool Edit Pro 1.2 and 2.0, and Cubase LE 1.1. I didn't stick with Pro Tools and am not a big fan for the way I work.

The most trouble free for synchronization have been Cool Edit or Cubase with Echo Digital Audio Hardware going back to Event Echo Layla 20.

My sync interface is probably the simplest and least expensive of all -- the original JL Cooper PPS-1 Version 2. I've owned it since new... around 1990. I've also used the PPS-100 and still have one.

Biggest mistakes I've known people to make are striping SMPTE while recording other audio and using wrong frame rates. For example, if the synchronizer stripes the tape at 30 fps and the DAW is set or defaults to 29.97 fps. During a typical 3 to 4 minute song there will be very noticeable drift.

I'm sure there are hardware issues as well with various products. From what I read on the forums I guess God has smiled on me when choosing equipment. I can vouch for JL Cooper, Event/Echo, and the software above, with DAW as slave.
~Tim
 
@ corganb - While miroslav's Click dump, edit style will work, I have been getting Sample accurate sync usinfg a MOTU Digital Timepeice w/ my 002 & Teac 80-8 steup. Suggested on another forum, works great - stripe track 8, feed into MOTU, and send SPDIF & MIDI to PT or other DAW. Clock to SPDIF obviously & put online & set to that MIDI inpout in MTC Synchroization page in Peripherals, also set TC incoming @ 30 Non-Drop (that which you will stripe, duh) - works great. Catch is you cannot use Optical inputs w/ a 002 at least - I have tried this same method via optical w/ BRC/ADAT to use the ADAT as 8 extra inputs. This works but is more cumbersome and unstable..The MOTU can also run the ADAT as the BRC would but w/ a 002 you still have the same stability issues. Although, I must add that my ADAT needs servicing and is not running the transport correct affecting the clock stability....
Jl Cooper PPS-2 only gets you 1/2way there..starts the transport but does not speed ref.....
 
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