Ramsa WRT 820 Vs Trident 78

AllenM

Member
Hi all, Ive decided to sell my ramsa wrt 820 to fund a purchase of the new Trident 78 32 channel board.
The reason behind this is i've moved from a 16 track 1" to a 24 track 2" and I need more channels.
Im not sure what to expect with the new trident 78 but I LOVE the sound of my ramsa. I'm hoping someone here could chime in on some experience with these boards. The trident 78 has a new "discrete class A preamp" which I have no clue how it sounds. My set up is mostly tape so Im after those HIFI tape recording sounds from the laste 70s early 80s.
 
Your looking to drop $30,000 on a new Trident 78, 32-channel board...and wondering how it will stack up to the Ramsa WRT 820...?

Ahh...I wouldn't give it a second thought. ;)

It's the difference between pro and consumer grade.
Not trying to shade the Ramsa...but honestly, when you say you love the sound of it, how many consoles have you used/heard besides the WRT 820?

I've not heard the new Trident boards...though all the reviews are quite good....but I know the 820, and back in the early '90s, it was a nice board for a home project studio. I looked at it real close, but at the time, ended up going with a Tascam M3500, which IMO was more robust.
I've since replace the Tascam with a vintage Trident 24 London...and I think it sounds much better than my Tascam. It's got more beef, and you don't have to work the EQs hard like on the Tascam to get some.

I considered the new Trident boards...but wasn't about to drop $25k-$30k for a 78...so my old Trident is quite good for my needs.
Anyway...if you can get one, I doubt you will miss the Ramsa.
 
I wouldn’t consider the WRT820 consumer grade...compared to the chintzy stuff on the market the last decade the Ramsa is a relatively robust build and nicely featured...somewhat contemporary to the Tascam M-500 series...sort of in between the M-500 and M-3000 series chronologically. Panasonic hardware is generally well-regarded.

The Trident 78. Well, I’m sure it sounds very nice...I’d have to see schematics to understand better about the head amp and “discrete”. There’s marketing jargon in there and it may very well be all discrete, or semi-discrete. A lot of consoles have a transistor input stage on the mic amp with an opamp follower...nothing wrong with this...very common, and the clever marketing fella might bill this as “discrete”. Not that this is the case with the 78. I don’t know. And then they offer the option of transformer outputs on the main buss and picture Lundahl transformers on the web page. This is all stuff to hook the prospective buyer. What bugs me is the pic of the channel card...allllllllll surface mount technology so for a guy like me, forget repairing it. Companies like Harrison are bucking that trend with their relatively high-end 950MX console...still all through-hole construction. But it has a pretty focused feature set. Yeah I know the argument the surface-mount stuff is touted to be just as reliable as through hole construction...but through-hole construction is a helluva lot easier to work on...it’s going away. And it’s not because it’s inferior, it’s because it is more expensive. I don’t have anything with surface mount construction that’s outlasted through-hole. The feature set Of the 78 is pretty nice...a couple of the features remind me of the monitor buss flexibility on my prototype Tascam console. But I digress. But $30K?? I don’t mean to be a black cloud or sound like a. a$$, but wow that’s a lot for what you get...I paid a 10th of that for my Studer desk last year. It’s 20 years old but the engineering and design is in a different category from what I see of the Trident...I betcha my Studer outlasts a 78...and it sounds amazing, has fancy input and output stages with magic shizzle transformers on all the summing outputs...the opamps used are mostly not run-of-the-mill...Linear Technologies, THAT and Analog Devices stuff...like I’m trying to build a small stock of spare components for the desk, not that I’ll ever need them, and most are still current Mouser stock but I’m having to swallow the price for the good stuff, $5 to $6+ each for some of these opamps. Anyway, my desk has more flexible EQ than the 78, all through-hole construction, 6 mono and 2 stereo auxes, electronic switching for reliability and noiseless switching, VCAs at all critical amp stages for reliability and better signal quality and (on stereo channels/busses) better imaging, 4 rock-solid master VCAs...dual master summing busses...onboard compressors on the group modules...everything is over-engineered...balanced signal throughout, and clever circuit design that provides +6dBu nominal headroom throughout on relatively low power rails for reliability...but with massive power reserve...I totaled this up the other day...for my 32x4 desk the power supplies for the audio rails alone or rated at a total of 60amps max...that’s not even peak. Over time I am increasingly impressed with my Studer...and like I said, where the rubber meets the road, because I can talk design and engineering and circuit topology all day and who cares, but the “how does it sound” bottom line is it sounds amazing. $3K. It was listed at $120K when new. No, it does not have inline monitoring. But my desk has enough input strips I don’t need that. Inline control topology was designed as a space-saving feature that also offers workflow conveniences. The EQ to monitor feature is nice. I like that. But honestly it seems more applicable to FOH applications. Not saying it’s not a valuable feature, I just don’t see how important it is in a recording setting. Anyway, if you have the space and budget for greater channel count you don’t need inline monitoring. [MENTION=99046]AllenM[/MENTION] I can’t recall what part of the world you are in...why am I thinking Europe...if so this doesn’t help you but my GOODNESS there’s been a gorgeous console same model as mine on Reverb for the last year:

Studer 928 Mixing Console | Studio Product | Reverb

It’s probably too big for what you are looking for, but I think it would verily blow your socks off...it is an 8 buss dual master desk with 44 mono and 5 stereo input modules, it was at the end of the production run so is about 15 years old, fitted with the optional transformers on all the line inputs...they have been asking $19K for the last year. It looks beautiful. It’s in the Russian Federation. But if somebody had the space, I would think an offer of $17K all year long would be the ticket before paying $30K for a new 78. I’m probably way off-base for what you are looking for, but I thought maybe my blah-blah would at least encourage you to stop and think. That console was probably $200 or maybe $250K when new.

Or if you are bent on a Trident, there’s always this one that’s been for sale for almost two years a few hours from me in Seattle...hahah:

Trident TSM 56 Recording Console Vintage - musical instruments - by...

They started at $56K...been at $35K for at least 6 months now.
 
I wouldn’t consider the WRT820 consumer grade...compared to the chintzy stuff on the market the last decade the Ramsa is a relatively robust build and nicely featured...somewhat contemporary to the Tascam M-500 series...sort of in between the M-500 and M-3000 series chronologically. Panasonic hardware is generally well-regarded.

Well...I always felt that anything that uses RCA connectors, is generally meant for consumer use.
That doesn't necessarily mean the build quality is bad...but I don't recall those being used all that much in a pro setting.
Mind you, IMO, most of the Tascam stuff, even my old 3500...are consumer and pro-sumer grade, with the exception of their top end models.

None of that means you can't use those to good results...but it's just how they fall in the scheme of things.

I was mainly comparing the Trident 78 to the Ramsa, which is kinda apples-n-oranges considering that the Trident 78 is new design, and the Ramsa is from the early '90s (not sure when they stopped making them. It's a good jump between the two, IMO.
Also...there is the overall design mentality...you've got English vs Japanese...and I don't mean that in any other way than sound perspective, each having its style.

Here's a good review/overview of the Trident 78:

Trident Audio Developments 78 Series

The real deal with new Tridents would be the 88 series...but a lot more $$$.

TBH...I wouldn't buy the 78 for $30k.
If I was going to drop that much on a console...I would look for something higher-end, used.
One has to keep in mind that these new Tridents are not the same as the old-school Series 80 and TSM (like you mentioned).
I'm also not a big PMI Group fan...but I don't want to get into that here.

Yeah...for $30k...I would look find something vintage high-end...or if I was determined for something new...then maybe Audient or Neotek is what I would consider...but I think if you look around, for $30k you could find a killer used, high-end console.

I'm kinda curious how/why the OP ended up with the choice between the Ramsa and the Trident...and if there were any other considerations?
Besides the need for more channels...what are you really looking for...something that is super clinical, precise, with lots of features and flexibility...or would you trade some of that for something that had a certain character, color...that just added something sweet to sources.
The other question would be about the type of music you were mainly going to use it for....what's the main purpose.
Those things may make a difference in your selection process.
 
Thanks for the replies.
The reason I'm interested in the Trident 78 is routing, channels, and space. I dont have alot of space in my studio.
Another thing is maintenance. I live in an area that is about 6 hrs from a big city so I need something that wouldn't be requiring maintenance.

I currently own the Ramsa board and use it with a Otari 24 track 2". It only has 20 channels and Ive been using a soundcraft side car mixer to use the 24 tape returns + fx returns.
Im looking at a Trident 78 and I like that is has 32 channels + fx returns, an option for flying faders (later on) and its brand new.
I record soft rock/soul/r&b/adultcontemporary.
Here is a mix I did on the Ramsa wrt 820 and otari Mtr 90 mk III - song is called 20/20
Music | Allen Michael
 
I also am getting a very good deal on the 78 32 channel which is why Im considering buying.
Ive worked with my ramsa wrt820, an amek angela II (I didnt like the eq's even though its more flexible-they just sounded weird to me), and thats it.


here is the best way I can put this:
I dont want to sell my ramsa but I have to in order to buy the trident 78. Im worried that the 78 is not gonna sound "classic". Does the ramsa sound classic?
Heck, im not sure but I dont have a problem with the preamps or anything it sounds great to me.
 
Does the ramsa sound classic?
Heck, im not sure but I dont have a problem with the preamps or anything it sounds great to me.

That's what I was getting about the sound of the boards.
I don't think you should have a problem getting a "classic" sound from a Trident...especially for Rock/Pop music.

Well...if you're getting a really good deal on the 78, that's a different thing. I just couldn't see dropping $30k on it.
Not sure the WRT820 will give you all that much in return toward the 78 purchase...but then, I'm not sure if there's any kind of used market vibe about those consoles.

Are you using any DAW...any kind of hybrid setup...or just using the MTR90 and going in/out of the console?
 
Another option...add an 8 channel sidecar, giving you your 24 channels. Presumably you aren’t using automation, etc...

Another option...I’ve heard som stunning releases done on Toft ATB things. They’re (kinda) based on Trident 80Bs, and that’s real good company
 
Already have a patchbay setup but would need the extra cabling for db25 connectors.... add an extra 1,500! lol

With the ramsa I have a sidecar Soundcraft mixer set up but I don’t like the sound of it and headroom stinks as well.
I’m gonna get the 78, I’m just hoping I can get a HI FI sound like all those classic records... I know what gets you the classic sound is your ears and a tape machine. The console helps regarding flexibility in routing and processing.

My issue with the ramsa is When I’m doing internal bounces I have to also re patch the tape returns on many channels. It’s just too much time spent repatching and lots of planning.
So if my only option for a NEW board that sounds great, more headroom, routing, and classic sound. I’m down.
Now I have proven to myself that a ramsa is a dang good board but I just wish it had more channels! That being said I’m wondering if anyone has actually heard a trident 78 or 88.
 
Also another thing is I like the inline design and need something that can be great for overdubbing etc.
 
Another option...add an 8 channel sidecar, giving you your 24 channels. Presumably you aren’t using automation, etc...

Another option...I’ve heard som stunning releases done on Toft ATB things. They’re (kinda) based on Trident 80Bs, and that’s real good company

The Toft ATB line and the new Trident 68/78/88 line is all from the same company - PMI Audio Group.

The 68/78/88 is supposed to be a higher-end version of their Toft stuff...but IMO, it's just a revamping, because the managed to buy the "Trident" name, and all the intellectual property...where before, they just had Malcolm Toft design the ATB based on his approach.
How true to the original Trident boards are either of these lines...mmm...maybe some portions, but I don't think either of them are identical to the 80 Series or the TSM vintage boards. I think the new Trident line sticks more to the originals than the Toft stuff...but that's just based on what I've read.

That doesn't necessarily make the new lines any worse (or better) than the original Tridents...just pointing out who is actually making them and how it came about that we again have Trident in production.

You could probably find some people who have used the new Tridents, and know first hand how they compare to the vintage Tridents.
AFA the Toft ATB stuff...there have been plenty of folks using them over the last bunch of years...who also have done comparisons to the vintage stuff.
Go do some searches on Gearslutz or on R/E/C forums.
I always felt the Toft ATB stuff was way overpriced...and people who have had their hands inside them, agreed...that they really didn't have great buikd quality...though they had a decent sound.
I think the new Trident stuff attempts to correct the build quality issues of the Toft...so now there are like multiple levels of consoles people can get into from Toft/Trident.



Trident 68 - 24-channel: $16k
Trident 78 - 24-channel: $25k
Trident 88 - 24-channel: $38k

Toft ATB - 32-channel: $7k (looks like they dropped the price...use to be over $9k...oh, and it looks like they dropped the 24-channel, but there is a 16).
 
Last edited:
Also another thing is I like the inline design and need something that can be great for overdubbing etc.

If you don't mind sharing...what kind of "good deal" price are you paying for a new 32-channel?
(you can PM me if you prefer not to post publicly...I will keep it private).
 
Very interesting thread. As I get ready to get a new studio space running I'm leaning toward the Audient boards, with the ASP4816, or a used ASP8024. The price is tough to beat.. and the reliability even harder to beat.

I won't offer any opinion on the Toft/Trident stuff since I've never had 'hands on faders' but I think Audient does inline console design very well and they offer a lot of advanced features right across the product range. Plenty of routing options, split-able EQs, large and small faders.. not just long faders and a set of knobs.

Audient isn't a 'colorful' brand which seems to be the current fad in pro-audio, like tube gear was 10 years ago. Butm for my money, I'd rather have a clean and reliable console and patch in color as needed instead of something filled with transformers and well suited to a more narrow band of musical styles.

I'd be curious, AllenM and Miro, if either of you have/had considered something from Audient in your console hunts.

That being said, I'm sure that Trident is keeping you very happy these days Miro :)
 
I'd be curious, AllenM and Miro, if either of you have/had considered something from Audient in your console hunts.

That being said, I'm sure that Trident is keeping you very happy these days Miro :)

Oh I've very much admired the Audient stuff...and would not hesitate getting one, if I was still looking.
Right now though, I'm staying with the Trident London 24, since it's been heavily upgraded in the power distribution, and with custom PS units, plus massive new grounding scheme. In addition to that...I did a complete recap, with high-end Panasonic capacitors, and then a complete re-chip of the 28 input channels and the 24 monitor channels. Plus I modified both the High and Low shelf EQs for better functionality, and I also went over each channel strip with a fine tooth comb.
The console sounds great. Yes...it has "color"...but that's what I wanted, instead of a clinical, transparent console. It's not like real intense, but certainly not a vanilla flavor. For me, it works well with outboard processing...so it's not like the console provides the lion's share of "color", or where it makes it harder to add in outboard flavors.
for Rock/Pop music...it works great....and that's mostly what I am doing with it. If I want transparency...I can just stay ITB for those things.
If I was running more of a commercial studio, doing a wide variety of music styles, then maybe something else might be better suited...but it would be more for the routing/mixing flexibility...multiple stereo busses, etc...and not really because the Trident is too colorful.

Even my tape deck, while certainly having some of that "tape" sound thing...it's not extreme. The Otari MX80 can be pretty transparent with the right tape...or, it can have some more color with a tape/bias change...but otherwise, the thing is a workhorse.

I may at some point consider a different console...but I probably would still prefer something vintage with balls...though, I do also have a certain love for boards that are more modern, with that "high-tech" vibe. The Audient 8024 is very nice console.
What's funny though...is with my Trident...I don't know if it's the big wood armrest and side-panels, or the colorful buttons...but when you walk in and look at it...it just makes you smile. It definitely has some kind of mojo going on...I mean, it just oozes "analog". :D

That said...there's also a great feeling buying something that doesn't need anything...something new/current and well-built, or at least something used that's still in production and/or with factory support.
It's a real PITA looking for parts for older gear that's been out of production for 20-30+ years.
With both my Otari MX80 and my Trident...I managed to acquire enough parts to keep them going well into the future.
 
Yeah I've done a LOT of that...buying a complete and ancient train-wreck...seers around me saying "don't do it, man" and I do it anyway. And then when I got my Studer console and realized it needed almost nothing. Like, it just works. Its a weird concept for me, but I like it. And [MENTION=109351]sr71rules[/MENTION] that's kind of how my console fits in...its really clean and quiet and pretty much transparent, but the EQ is sweet sounding on it, so that adds something, and the group and master outputs do something nice when pushed...the output amps are aneat design that are a hybrid opamp/transformer output...a high quality custom transformer with a third winding that is incorporated into the feedback loop of the opamp. And so when pushed they do something that sounds non-linear and less transparent, like a really useful edge or bite to the mid-range definition of the program, and the low and high frequencies stay clear and defined. So that's really fun and useful...it has gobs of drive though which is great to mate with the tape machine. So its nice that the desk is relatively transparent and clean so when I want something with more character that's where the tape machine comes in, and the 2" 16-track Ampex fits that bill. These are things I didn't think too hard about before I had the Studer desk...I was kind of bent on everything analog having character to it, but in a hybrid setup where the analog console is still the centerpiece it makes sense to me for the console to be able to function transparently...you can add character either in outboard gear (or also if the console is capable of morphing when pushed), but you pretty much can't take something with character and make it transparent when you need that.
 
So I finally heard some examples of the trident 78 online. One project it was used with tape so I was able to get a good idea of it. There are a few workarounds I have to get used to. For example the Ramsa has a button on the master section that allows you to listen to just the sends 1 and 2 (headphone mix) On the trident 78 you have to solo sends 5 and 6. And the trident monitor section. Which I think may be compared to PGM MIX on the ramsa. But on the trident you can flip the tape monitor to feed the input channel to have access to busses, eqs, etc.

I like that on the 78 32 channel I am gaining:
+4 balanced on everything (yay, no more rca to trs converters lol)
better pres (?? I think ??)(class a- does that mean anything? lol)
More headroom (supposedly)
better eq's (probably)
more channels (32) + monitor inputs and group inputs
Option for automation in the future!!!!! (trimix will work with 78 model) - now to figure out how to work with tape smpte
fx returns!! (I love this)
Transformer on Master out + Monitor out (idk if this will benefit the sound but o.k)
Inserts!!! on the group outputs and Master L/R!!!!! (super amazing ha)
An option to monitor through 2 track returns (x2 of them!!)
3 year warranty, a NEW console (no scratchy faders or crackling mutes)

I am also gaining more time ,creative options, and flexibility with my workflow of tracking, bouncing, and mixing on tape.
The ramsa due to lack of inputs had me re patching and planning just to free up some channels for tracking. Plus I hated using a side car mixer (soundcraft efx 12) it had no headroom or busses.

Drawbacks: I had to sell my tascam ms16 and ramsa wrt 820 to help pay for downpayment. but Im still using a otari mtr 90 2" which I like anyways because of the 24 tracks.
The 78 doesn't have as many features as the 88 but Its still ALOT more flexible than the ramsa.
board is kinda expensive but I think i'm getting a good deal.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top