Is this possible?

nate_dennis

nate_dennis

Well-known member
I'm daydreaming (like I always do) about recording sessions I want to do. If I were to record the rhythm (drums, bass, guitars, etc) on an 8 track; could I record multiple takes of a string section to a 1/2 track then fly it in with any kind of syncronization?

I want to be able to do multiple takes of the strings and keep the best one, so I thought a seperate deck would be ideal. I just don't know how I'd get it synced up with the 8 track. Any ideas?

Thanks


(and no, this isn't pressing, I don't even have my decks yet.:D)
 
String section recorded in stereo or mono? I'm asking because sync between two transports is always going to take up 1 track on each machine. If stereo then you'd be looking for a halftrack with a center timecode track. Then you'd record your multiple takes and you'd have to program in locate points so the system "remembers" the timecode offset for each take. Sure it can be done. Sounds like a major league PITA to me. Sync cables, synchronizer...more expensive halftrack. If this is something you'd want to do I'd get a 1/2" or 1" 16-track and use the extra tracks for multiple takes. I think you'd be ahead financially, especially considering what you'd save in headache medicine.

My 2p.
 
Interesting. Yeah, I don't know. I'm just kicking ideas around. I want the strings in stereo, but who knows, maybe mono would sound good too. Here's to options.
 
yeh sounds like the more difficult scenario. 16 or 24 track would be better if you really want to do take after take and keep the best ones later. but this is part of the nature of analog (partularly with 4 & 8 track) ... you kind of have to figure it out while you're recording. i actually really love this element to recording, it helps keep things focused. you have to decide when you've got a good take while it's happening. over time, you may develop a sense to know when the take was "the one" ... for me, that usually means the fine line between getting it perfect and still having the inspiration. i will usually go with jagged takes that "feel" right or have moments of inspiration as opposed to being technically "correct" or "perfect".

lately i've been staying on my toes by submixing groups and recording new elements at the same time to the same track. really adds a sense of urgency and finality to the proceedings!
 
Yes...may seem contrary to my plans to build up my Ampex MM-1000 into a 16 track, but ultimately I'd love to settle on a 3-track mix for drums using 7 mics...kick, snare (bottom head), overheads, one out front of the kick above and angled toward the front head, and 1 on each of two toms...that would be for a certain multi-mic sound but preserving track count...other times just two overheads and one kick to 3 tracks or submixed to two tracks.

There's something freeing about not being able to change it later, and I think it actually takes some pressure off during tracking and shifts the focus.

There's a classic casting method called "lost-wax" casting...a cast is carved out of wax, and then as the molten metal is poured in it destroys the cast but the wax quenches the molten metal enough for the metal to hold shape. Something like that. The point is that you get one chance at that casting. That's what I like about tracking to analog. You are committing tracks, and if something wasn't right you are forever deleting what was before as you re-record (if over the previous material). An analog process does indeed shift the focus.

Even when tracking to digital I typically use an analog process.

A friend of mine in college loved recording sessions with last minute changes, or rearrangements last minute at the gig...the rush of "can I do it?" Or stepping in to sub a session.

Not stepping on your musings nate_dennis...just other thoughts. I admit that my original impetus for striving for a good two-track drum mix was to track that to my BR-20T (slaved to my DAW...it has a center timecode track) and then, doing just as you suggested above, building tracks two at a time and using timecode offsets and locate points to essentially build takes linearly on the halftrack but stack them simultaneously in the DAW. The takes are preserved on the tape machine. It would work, and I anticipate trying ths someday for fun, but I'm a bit distracted by getting the MM-1000 going. :D
 
So in this original "daydream" scenario, you'd be striping the 'same' time code on to different sections of tape on the "B"/(strings) machine and then use which ever section you liked?

I've never done any tape synching (except as I've forgotten the process of a long, long time ago with a drum machine & 4 track cassette), but could you do that ?: stripe the 'same' synch code so you could have the "B" deck follow with whatever section of tape you cued up? ...interesting "what if..."

what I have thought could be interesting/useful sometimes would be to synch a multi-track cassette machine to a reel to reel for those times when "ohhh, i just need two more tracks..." for some arrangement idea, but quality on those (backing harmony or whatever) tracks is not of the highest concern. could even be interesting having the different colors of tape 'resolution'.

I guess I'm not going to get around to trying anything like that for a long time...;)
 
sweetbeats said:
Yes...may seem contrary to my plans to build up my Ampex MM-1000 into a 16 track, but ultimately I'd love to settle on a 3-track mix for drums using 7 mics...
Click to expand...

THREE tracks! youre crazy! i've been doing 1 track lately (2 mics submixed to one track using a shure m67) and its the best drum sound i've been able to get so far. i've been really into the idea of recording mulitple musicians live to one track on the tape to avoid bouncing later as well. its exactly what you're talking about with the wax sculptures ... just gets you in a different frame of mind. i really believe that this was a lot of what was cool about the '60s records ... this kind of recording where you just kind of accept the inconsistencies and the results are more unique and character-filled.

i have actually recorded a track with 5-piece band live to mono with one mic. it didn't sound good by conventional standards but it had a weird vibe that i like so i'm gonna use that one as a master. the tambourine is way louder than anything else because it was closer to the mic
 
Flying in short sections without synchronization was done with analog for decades. If the section is short enough the decks will stay in sync for long enough to pull it off. You will go through some trial and error to get the decks to start at the same instant, but I used to do this on occasion and it works fine. It will eventually drift, so it's not usefull for long sections.
 
Beck said:
Flying in short sections without synchronization was done with analog for decades. If the section is short enough the decks will stay in sync for long enough to pull it off. You will go through some trial and error to get the decks to start at the same instant, but I used to do this on occasion and it works fine. It will eventually drift, so it's not usefull for long sections.
Click to expand...

indeed. i did this with an entire vocal track recently in fact! it was not perfect, but close enough. i tend to view this as being kind of a fix in a bind or a special situation as opposed to something that you plan to do ahead of time as a general practice!
 
I did this with the chorus for 'Beings and Creatures' in 2006.
I tracked it normally, added flanging using two additional decks and recorded the flanged version to the fourth deck. (The flanging process threw the timing by about 1/15th sec owing to the inter-head gap).

Then I flew the chorus back into the master each time it was needed. It was a real hassle to get the timing right, took a lot of takes and I never did get it 100%.
 
LUNE said:
So in this original "daydream" scenario, you'd be striping the 'same' time code on to different sections of tape on the "B"/(strings) machine and then use which ever section you liked?

I've never done any tape synching (except as I've forgotten the process of a long, long time ago with a drum machine & 4 track cassette), but could you do that ?: stripe the 'same' synch code so you could have the "B" deck follow with whatever section of tape you cued up? ...interesting "what if..."
Click to expand...

No if'ing...it would work.

Its like this:

  • You stripe timecode on both machines and set 00:00:00 for both.
  • You fill up the 8 tracks on the 1/2" machine (in this example) and then you fill up the 2 tracks on the halftrack (one with a center timecode track).
  • Let's say the song is 3 minutes long...
  • Now you rewind the 8-track to 00:00:00, and ADVANCE the halftrack to maybe 3:30 (leaving that 30 seconds for ample pre-roll time for the synchronizer to get both machines to lock solid).
  • So now the 8-track is parked at 00:00:00 and the halftrack parked at 3:30. There's a function called "offset" in the synchronization world. Basically you make 3:30 the new 00:00:00 on the halftrack. You're just telling the synchronizer "yes I know you read that the halftrack is at 03:30:XX, but I'm telling you that is 00:00:00." Get it? Now you can play those 8-tracks back while recording on a fresh patch of tape on the halftrack and when you RTZ both machines return to 00:00:00 but the halftrack is at 3:30 (actually both machines would be parked at a certain amount of time BEFORE "00:00:00" for pre-roll).
You can keep repeating the process and you access the different 00:00:00 locations on the halftrack by storing the different offsets as locate points in the synchronizer.

If you were doing this between two tape machines the hardware needed to lock them is less complicated than what you need for interfacing with a DAW (because in that case the synchronizer also needs to speak MIDI). So the ATS-500 is an option, and even the Fostex 4030 which I see coming along here and there for CHEAP. Interface cabling is ALWAYS the sticky bit when either chase-locking a tape deck to a DAW or chase locking two or more tape machines together.
 
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