New 388 problem

I think i understand ehat you're saying.

Unity gain Is desireable. Both in the daw and in an analog setup.

But that is seperate from your monitoring. Yeah if everything was at unity, you'd fry your ears. speakers etc.

I think the tc unit is for daws and powered monitors where your volume is controlled by a mouse but isn't needed with a mixer.

You should have a dedicated monitor volume that no matter how hard you are slamming the mix buss, you could listen quietly or loudly.

Headphone amps are generally run on an aux send.
With my board I have 3 'vol' controls. One for control room, one for the live room, and one for the headphones.
All this has nothing to do with my mix/tracking levels. Just how loud or soft I'm hearing what is going on.

Edit: Re: headphones, my trusty 25 year old AkG phones are much quieter in level than my new sennheiser headphones. It seems like most newer phones are louder?
 
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RFR said:
I think i understand ehat you're saying.

Unity gain Is desireable. Both in the daw and in an analog setup.

But that is seperate from your monitoring. Yeah if everything was at unity, you'd fry your ears. speakers etc.

I think the tc unit is for daws and powered monitors where your volume is controlled by a mouse but isn't needed with a mixer.

You should have a dedicated monitor volume that no matter how hard you are slamming the mix buss, you could listen quietly or loudly.

Headphone amps are generally run on an aux send.
With my board I have 3 'vol' controls. One for control room, one for the live room, and one for the headphones.
All this has nothing to do with my mix/tracking levels. Just how loud or soft I'm hearing what is going on.

Edit: Re: headphones, my trusty 25 year old AkG phones are much quieter in level than my new sennheiser headphones. It seems like most newer phones are louder?
Click to expand...

Thanks for explaining this. I'm guessing you have a fairly sizeable board?

To be honest, I won't usually be working with the talent in a separate room while using the 388. It'll mostly be me recording in the control room (maybe using my closet if I need some isolation). And so I could use the headphone jack on the 388 during my tracking. It just seems odd to me that, if I wanted to just hear what it sounded like through the speakers, I'd have to crank the headphones knob all the way (or at least a whole lot).

I mean ... when I'm mixing, I don't want to have to sacrifice one of my sends for a headphone mix. I want to be able to use both for effects. So that means I need to use the headphone jack if I want to check my mix on headphones. And that means I'll have to turn the phones knob down when I want to do that and then back up when I want to go back to monitors.

Right? Or am I missing something?
 
I guess this is maybe why I got into the habit of just monitoring off the main mix when using a Portastudio. In other words, I wouldn't use my MON OUT jacks for anything; I'd just use my LINE OUT (main mix) jacks and run those to my speakers, monitoring off the main mix. And I did this because the monitor mix didn't make sense to me at the time.

I thought I had figured it out for the most part now, but this deal with the 388 phones/monitor thing has me all confused again.

I just don't see the logic in having the monitor speakers volume strapped to the headphone level. Why wouldn't the MONITOR OUT jacks send a healthy (boosted) level like the STEREO OUT jacks do? That way, you could monitor through your speakers at whatever volume you want independently of your headphone volume. And you wouldn't have to worry about forgetting to turn down the PHONES/MON knob before you put headphones on.

In my 246, for example, it's different. You can select the buss you want to hear in the phones (PGM, MON, EFF 1, or EFF 2), but the phones knob has no effect on what's coming out of the MONITOR OUT jacks. It only effects the volume at the phones jack.

This makes sense to me. Why doesn't the 388 work like that?

Again, I know there must be a reason, but it's lost on me.

I feel as though I'm taking crazy pills.
 
I've clocked in quite a few hours on the 246, but it was so long ago i don't remember how I set it up. Usually the only thing I had miced up was the singer who was in another room with a mic and headphones while I monitored off speakers.

My current console is not big, but I guess could be considered so. It's a Tascam m520. 20 inputs 16 monitor section and 4 aux sends. It is very versatile with lots of jacks both in and out and a million ways to route signal.


Yes it seems insane to have a radical difference between volume when switching between phones and monitors on the 388.

Don't know if that's a design flaw, an issue that needs to be fixed still, or is connection error on your part.

However, this unit came out when record labels were giving out deals like they were Halloween candy.
I think it was geared towards the singer/songwriters, but more so the fledgling band looking to cut a demo to get a deal.
In this case a band could pool together the cash and go in on one. Yeah, it wasn't cheap but it could be done and was more cost effective than going into a big studio. This unit also opened the doors to the 'project/demo' studios.

In the case of a singer/songwriting team, two HP outs would be enough.

In the case of the band, most likely they'd all be in the same room, often not even using monitoring at all.
Once levels got set everyone could just play.

On mixdown they'd all be huddled around the monitors, making sure their own instrument was loud enough in the mix.

I know there are in this forum some actual current 388 users, maybe they can chime in???
 
Yeah I'd love to hear from any other 388 users. It has to be that I'm just not understanding it properly, but ... I really don't see how I could have it hooked up incorrectly.

Cory (sweetbeats) himself said that the MON OUT jacks are not like the STEREO OUT jacks in that there's no gain there. My question is why not? Wouldn't it make more sense for them to have gain?

I just must be missing something.
 
Hmmm. Im assuming monitor out would be for monitoring and stereo out would be for your mixdown. Is there a stereo/2track in???

On the 520 I have 2 stereo ins and a spare. I do all my mixdown monitoring from those selected. This way I'm monitoring from the mixdown machine rather than what's going to it.

We'll, or at least I, shall wait for an actual user to chime in. :)
 
RFR said:
Hmmm. Im assuming monitor out would be for monitoring and stereo out would be for your mixdown. Is there a stereo/2track in???

On the 520 I have 2 stereo ins and a spare. I do all my mixdown monitoring from those selected. This way I'm monitoring from the mixdown machine rather than what's going to it.

We'll, or at least I, shall wait for an actual user to chime in. :)
Click to expand...

Yes there is a STEREO BUSS in (L/R). As far as I know, the way you mentioned is the way it's supposed to be used --- monitor jacks for monitoring in the control room and stereo jacks for mixdown.
 
Ok, for clarification sake here's my understanding.
1) you have only one volume control that is regulating two listening destinations. A) headphones and B) monitor outs.
2) headphones utililise their own HP amp internally and send that to two jacks
3) The monitor out jacks are controlled by that one volume, but when used, are much quieter forcing you to turn up the volume. (At the mixer)
4) when switching back to headphones, your levels are now deafening.

Correct??
 
RFR said:
Ok, for clarification sake here's my understanding.
1) you have only one volume control that is regulating two listening destinations. A) headphones and B) monitor outs.
2) headphones utililise their own HP amp internally and send that to two jacks
3) The monitor out jacks are controlled by that one volume, but when used, are much quieter forcing you to turn up the volume. (At the mixer)
4) when switching back to headphones, your levels are now deafening.

Correct??
Click to expand...

Exactly! :)
 
Ok, a simple solution would to run the monitor outs to an old school stereo receiver turn up the volume on the receiver to match the headphone volume levels. This way you could comfortably switch back and forth when mixing.

Another possible issue could be your Yorkville /Alesis impedance. Possibly it is the amp speaker combo that isn't loud enough?

Do you have the same volume difference issues with your 246, or when using your Daw? I'm assuming you're using the same monitor chain for all three.
 
RFR said:
Ok, a simple solution would to run the monitor outs to an old school stereo receiver turn up the volume on the receiver to match the headphone volume levels. This way you could comfortably switch back and forth when mixing.

Another possible issue could be your Yorkville /Alesis impedance. Possibly it is the amp speaker combo that isn't loud enough?

Do you have the same volume difference issues with your 246, or when using your Daw? I'm assuming you're using the same monitor chain for all three.
Click to expand...

I don't think it's the amp/speakers. Yes I'm using the same monitor chain for all three, and I definitely do not have the same problem when using my 246 or my DAW. The mixes coming out of the MON jacks on both those are both loud and clear. Then again, neither of them are strapped to the headphone volume the way the 388 is.

I do have a small Behringer mixer (Xenyx Q802) that I'm not using at all right now, so I suppose I could use that to boost the level of the MON OUT jacks on the 388. That's a good idea; thanks for the suggestion!

I think that should work, although, I have to say ... I really want to understand why the 388 is designed that way. It just doesn't make a lick of sense to me, especially considering the fact that the 246 is not that way (the monitor out jacks are not affected at all by the headphone knob).

Anyway, thanks for the solution! Now someone just needs to educate me on why it's necessary in the first place! :)
 
Well again, I'm hoping someone else chimes in.
I think at this point you/we have pretty well documented at least exactly what your symptoms are.

Hell, maybe it's just a stupid design. I dunno.
For me when i want to use headphones, I just pull down my monitor fader, and raise the HP volume knob to a desired listening level. Two completely independent systems.
Nice and easy, as well as flexible.

:D
So whoever is still reading this and is knowledgeable, please chime in.

Too much of the blind leading the blind.

:D
 
RFR said:
For me when i want to use headphones, I just pull down my monitor fader, and raise the HP volume knob to a desired listening level. Two completely independent systems.
Nice and easy, as well as flexible.
Click to expand...

Yes, this is just the way the 246 is. I don't know why the 388 is the way it is. But at least I have a workaround.

Now I just have to button her back up and start trackin'.

Thanks
 
If thats just the way it is, here's another workaround (possibly).
Attenuate the headphones at the headphone outs. In other words, instead of plugging the phones right into the 388, plug them into a seperate device with its own volume control.

It would still be dependent on the master volume on the 388, but you could at least knock down the headphone volume without disturbing the speaker volume.

Or.....don't use the internal headphone amp at all.
You said you have some HP amps. Just hook one up to the mixer.
 
RFR said:
If thats just the way it is, here's another workaround (possibly).
Attenuate the headphones at the headphone outs. In other words, instead of plugging the phones right into the 388, plug them into a seperate device with its own volume control.

....

Or.....don't use the internal headphone amp at all.
You said you have some HP amps. Just hook one up to the mixer.
Click to expand...

For the first suggestion, what type of device are you talking about? Like my Behringer mixer for example?

For the second suggestion, from where would the headphone signal come? I don't want to use one of my AUX sends for a headphone mix because I need them both for effects come mixdown time.
 
For the first a simple volume pot might work. Something like your tc unit. All you need is a box with an input/:a stereo vol pot/ and a headphone output jack.

For the second (external HP amp) probably could do a Y cable off the monitor out so it feeds both a HP amp and your power amp. No auxes get used up.
 
RFR said:
For the first a simple volume pot might work. Something like your tc unit. All you need is a box with an input/:a stereo vol pot/ and a headphone output jack.

For the second (external HP amp) probably could do a Y cable off the monitor out so it feeds both a HP amp and your power amp. No auxes get used up.
Click to expand...

Oh ok, I see. I think in my case, the simplest solution would still be your first one, which is to amplify the MON OUT jacks. I'm not using my Behringer mixer for anything right now, so it would ideal for that.
 
Cory, thank you again sooo much for all your help with this. I'm sorry I wasted so much of your time only to find out that I simply didn't understand how it was supposed to work!
 
No worries.

To be honest I'm surprised there isn't an output booster amp on the MONITOR buss, but like I stated in your 246 thread who knows why they did it that. If you asked me to surmise why I would tell you the 388 was targeted for the small video production house. The target user wasn't necessarily focused on the audio. Most of the monitoring would be handled via headphones, but if they were using the MONITOR OUT jacks the speakers might be more utilitarian than critical listening. It is odd though. And I didn't know this until you and I started digging into it.

You learned a lot on this one and did well, and if I'm not mistaken the additional good news is your 388 is 100% functional.

Regarding the confusion about nominal level standards...think of it this way...there are diesel cars, gas cars, electric cars...they're all cars but each uses a different standard of energy source. They all do the same job.

The different audio nominal standards are really just about how many AC volts rms = 0 on the VU meter. For the -10dBV standard it is 0.316V. For +4dBu or +8dBu it is something bigger. Knowing what audio level standard your inputs and outputs are drives the gear you use upstream and downstream from that device. So that's why it's important to know. With +4dBu the circuits are designed to handle hotter signal internally which equates to higher headroom. None of the Tascam stuff is anything but -10dBV internally. That's the case with most stuff. Higher standard requires higher voltage rails and all the circuits have to be able to handle that voltage. It gets expensive.

But if you have a diesel car you know you're going to need to interface with a diesel pump at the gas station...you'll have trouble if you try anything else...if you have a-10dBV standard audio device you know you're going to have trouble if you try to feed it with a +4dBu source...you might not be able to attenuate the output of the +4dBu device enough to avoid overloading the input of the -10dBV device. Same goes on the other end...try to feed a +4dBu input with a -10dBV output and you won't likely have enough output boost on the -10dBV device to make the +4dBu device sit up and take notice. So the nominal standards are really about being able to identify the right equipment to match things up...so the play nice together and make sense.
 
Another quick and dirty: put a simple HP amp in the HP circuit. As long as it has a level control it can act as an attenuator as well as an amplifier. Use the 388 mon out control to set your comfortable speaker level. Personally I'd set the mon out at 12:00 and then just the TC until the speakers are loud, not deafening. Adjust the HP amps control to taste for the phones. You can do this with your extra member, just a few more controls to fuss with. Do you know what line level your amp likes? +8, +4, 0, -10?
 
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