My first R2R Deck. How many tracks do I really need?

M

MAXRB

New member
Hello,

I hope you can help me to choose my first reel to reel deck.

First of all I'm planning to mixdown my digital demos to this deck, as a way to familiarize myself to analog recording.
I can't afford buying a deck and a decent console at the same time, but my DAW (an Akai DPS24) has dedicated inputs and returns for a 2 tracks mastering and four sends and returns so it casn be Ok for that task.

Once I feel confident I'd like to record in analog and probably a two tracks machine is not going to be enough: I would need at least 4 tracks for my personal projects and 8 tracks for my band projects.

I don't know if I should get a two channels deck as a first step or I should get a 4 or even an eight tracks machine from the very beginning of my analog adventure.

4 tracks seems to be better than 2 (at least for recording a band) but I'm unsure if two tracks decks (1/4) are basically the same animals then their counterparts of 4 or 8 tracks. I mean, can you use a four track deck for mixing down?

I've been offered a Revox B-77 MKII (two channels) and an AKAI GX4000D (4 tracks but two channels?)
On the other hand I've seen a Tascam 38, apparently in good shape.

The Revox B-77 looks great to print my 2 tracks mixes (i'm sure it will add some glue and warmness to my digital recordings). what should I do?



Thanks a lot.


ps: I cannot find a 388 in my country. Nobody wants to ship it. so, I'm afraid, that's not really an option
 
Sure, you can use a 4-track deck for mixdown if you wanted. You'd just record to 2 of the tracks. For that matter, you could use an 8-track, 16-track, or 24-track the same way. It's just that most people use 2 tracks because of the extra tape width: 1/4" for two tracks, as opposed to 1/4" spread out over 4 or 8 tracks or even 1/2" spread out over 8 tracks.
 
The Revox B77 will record 2 tracks across the entire 1/4" tape, while that Akai will record 2 tracks across 1/2 of the same width tape. Sounds like the Akai is more of a consumer deck - I am not all that familiar with thier models. You could then flip the tape over for more recording time. For analog mastering I would go with the 2 tracks across the whole tape approach, you will likely get better sound overall. Remember that the condition of the deck is likely more important than the brand... I'd rather have a mint condition Akai consumer deck than a worn out Revox professional unit. Many here will likely call that statement blasphemy, but a worn out pro deck isn't of any value, and with parts being hard to come by these days.....


Just my opinions and as they say YMMV.

AK
 
I would reccommend the TSR-8 over the 38-8 any day. Better electronics and just better all the way around. same format tho 8 tracks on 1/2" tape.
Another reccommendation? If you think you can do it with 8 go for 16. Or you'll end up being sorry...
 
I would not use a multitrack machine for a simple stereo mixdown, personally.
Ideally you want a high-speed 2-track machine. The Revox might well be... find out if it runs at 3.75ips and 7.5ips (low speed), or 7.5 and 15ips (high speed).

The Akai was a popular consumer machine dating around 1973. The GX version is quite desirable as it has glass heads that supposedly do not wear out. It has its good points, but at the end of the day it is a low-speed stereo machine which records on half of the tape (you can turn the reels over like a cassette deck). The Akai defaults to 3.75ips, with 7.5ips only available by putting a special bushing over the capstan. If you decide to go for it, find out whether the thingy comes with the machine otherwise it will be stuck at very low speed instead of just low speed.
The Revox will almost certainly record over the entire width of the tape, with better results.
Also, the Akai can only take up to 7" reels. The Revox will be able to take 10.5" metal ones, giving about 32 minutes at high speed.

The 38 is a nice machine to track to if you want to do an all-analogue recording. Bear in mind that the tracks are as narrow as in the Akai, so it's probably a bad choice for 2-track mixdown.
 
"My first R2R Deck. How many tracks do I really need?"

All of them. I got my first back in January, near-mint TSR-8. All love.
 
well I would reccommend an Otari over anything tascam, but I get the feeling the OP has limited options.

getting back to the original posters questions... why are you interested in two track decks? I think you may end finding the 2 track mastering decks much less useful than a four track or an eight track.

what kind of music are you making? tracking a full band with drums?

I suggest the 8 track because it will likely be sometime before you outgrow it, compared to a four track deck. also in the meantime you can use it to experiment with two track mixdowns.
 
Thanks for your answers so far.

I suppose I have to decide myself between my two options:

1. A good mastering machine only for mixing down my projects (and maybe recording my acoustic two tracks demos) like a Revox B-77 (7ips/15ips) or the Otari MX-50 (after your comments I think I will not choose the Akai).

My interest for those comes from the book Analog Recording. Using Analog Gear in Today's Home Studio, the author talks about how to make a stereo master from a two track digital mix.

I bought my DAW 6 months ago, (after I gave up my search of a Tascam 388 ) so for me it would be an easy and not too expensive ( as I don't need a console) way of having some analog flavour in my songs.

But I'm unsure about the result of a digital recording with a tape mixdown: pastiche or a real analog sound recording?


2. Multitrack deck (4 or 8 tracks) and console. I play in a garage two-man-band, so I think 8 tracks is OK for our minimalistic rock (drums+guitr, Echoplex and spring reverb and that's it)

http://profile.myspace.com/hollersfromspain

just in case, is there any 4 tracks deck that you can recommend me?

And should I look for a TSr-8 instead of a Tascam 38? And what about the console? I've got a serious problem of space (analog consoles are big).
 
MAXRB said:
I suppose I have to decide myself between my two options:
1. A good mastering machine only for mixing down my projects (and maybe recording my acoustic two tracks demos) like a Revox B-77 (7ips/15ips) or the Otari MX-50 (after your comments I think I will not choose the Akai).
Click to expand...
Yeah... the Akai is nice enough, but it's not a mastering deck.

Doing digital tracking, editing it digitally and then mixing down to tape is a recognised technique, though personally I prefer to do it all on tape if possible.

2. Multitrack deck (4 or 8 tracks) and console. I play in a garage two-man-band, so I think 8 tracks is OK for our minimalistic rock (drums+guitr, Echoplex and spring reverb and that's it)

just in case, is there any 4 tracks deck that you can recommend me?

And should I look for a TSr-8 instead of a Tascam 38? And what about the console? I've got a serious problem of space (analog consoles are big).
Click to expand...
You don't need a full-sized desk. There are some small and medium-sized ones which will do a decent enough job. With one of the smaller units, you can fit the whole lot (mixer, multitrack and mixdown deck) on one table.

Here's the setup I used a few years ago:
http://dougtheeagle.com/lab/lab2004.jpg

http://dougtheeagle.com/lab/lab2005s.jpg

I got a larger mixer later on, primarily because I wanted to be able to have two synchronized TSR-8 machines:
http://dougtheeagle.com/lab/lodt_b77.jpg
...but it's still a reasonably compact setup.

And yes, the TSR-8 is a nice machine.
 
Tascam 38. i purchased mine last month and im far from dissapointed. extremely easy to use and the 8 tracks spread over a half inch is no sacrifice at all.
 
nice stuff MAXRb. i'm assuming you know of the black keys, is that what led you to a 388?

Tascam made 30-series 4 track decks (tascam 34) and possibly 40 and 50 series as well? Tascam 34s are probably the most common and the 40 and 50 series stuff seems a little harder to come by.

Otari made MX5050 4 track decks too.

there's prolly some old TEAC stuff floating around out there too.

For the kind of stuff you do, 4 tracks might be enough, but its always nice to have a little more. I would look for a 8 track 1/2". just mix to your computer and forget about the mastering deck.

If I wanted to intentionally keep it lo-fi, I might opt for 38 instead of an Otari or a TSR8.
 
Tascam had the 40-4 (contemporary of the 80-8), and the 44 (couple different permutations that I've seen), and the above mentioned 34. No 4-track in the 50-series. There was also the 70-series but I don't recommend you go there, and the ATR60-4...good luck finding one. Used to have a Teac 3340S...sounded fabulous. Similar electronics to the 80-8 and 40-4 I imagine.
 
Yeah man.

I'd love to find an ATR-60/4HS w/dbx for a reasonable amount,... (or at all).
1/2" 4-track. That's gotta sound huge.:eek:;)
 
Thanks,


Jpmorris, your lab is really cool, and at least the 2004 one is more or less as big as my recording room.
I'm bidding for a Tascam M-208 right now, which is recommended as a decent mixer in an old thread and it's not big.


thanks Hi_Flyer. Yes, I really like The Black Keys, specially his early works, recorded just with a Tascam 388!

I think you're right .I should try to get an 8 tracks deck.
Unless I find an excellent deal I'm not going to buy a mastering machine right now (maybe one day as second machine).

Probably it's going to be easier to get THAT sound if my recordings are analog since the very beginning. Then I can mix and edit then in digital (24/96).


I'm looking for a TSR-8, but i wouldn't mind a TAscam 38 either.

I've been listening to some friends demo, recorded recently in a studio with an old 38, and I like very much that mid-fi sound:http://www.myspace.com/littlecobras
Compared to their previous work in the same studio (just Protools) this one has a lot of bottom end for a band without bass, a cohesive sound and it's quite raw in a good sense.

What about Fostexs? i've seen they are cheaper in Ebay. They are selling a G16 and a E16 in Ebay, just for the price of a Tascam with eight tracks.
I read they were more affordable than tascams and Otaris and therefore not that good in terms of bild quality, etc. Is that true?

One last question. Are there any evident sonic differences between the TSR-8, the Tascam 38, the Fostexs, etc. Or maybe the sonic differences have more to do with rest of the chain (mics, pres...)?
 
The Fostex 16 track decks are 1/2" decks like the MSR-16 so keep that in mind. The track width is half of the TSR-8/38, etc. I think Fostex made some good decks. I don't believe there is an antagonistic view of them. They marketed more heavily and focused on the home recordist prosumer market much more than Tascam did, so in a sense they were geared more toward that market, but I don't think their products in and of themselves are inferior. I would say the biggest reason I might avoid one today is simply because of parts availability and support. There are lots and lots of 38's and TSR-8's running around and you'd have double the tape real-estate. Plus I've been shocked in my 58 refurb process being able to to talk to the analog gurus still working at Tascam in Montebello, CA. I have had very technical and detailed questions and they have consistently taken the time to work with me and help. Plus I'm also surprised at the availability of some pretty obscure parts...lifter arms, guides, tension arm springs for instance. Wow. So my vote is that you look for a good condition 80-8, 38, TSR-8, 48, 58, whatever. There is a more active community of users for those decks. I have heard some pretty amazing stuff off of an Fostex M80 though...that's a 1/4" 8-track deck. It'll all do the job depending on the talent and the engineering. ;) And I've heard great stuff off of an MSR-16 too. For that matter I've been shocked by the quality of some stuff done by Ksounds and A Reel Person on their cassette 4-track decks (424 mkII and 246 respectively). It goes back to what's been said...forget model number/manufacturer. Look for a well cared for low miles deck with a manual...one that you can know the history by talking to the owner. Try and get locally. Check craigslist.
 
MAXRB said:
One last question. Are there any evident sonic differences between the TSR-8, the Tascam 38, the Fostexs, etc. Or maybe the sonic differences have more to do with rest of the chain (mics, pres...)?
Click to expand...

sonic differences? yes, maybe. will you be able to hear them? I think that will depend on your monitoring, and whether your mics and board are good enough to reveal them. to the average listener? prolly not. I think all these decks will get you that "lo-fi" or "mid-fi" or whatever you wanna call it sound, especially if you are not using alot of quality outboard.

one practical consideration is the availability of parts, as sweetbeats says, parts for tascam decks seem to be much easier to find than parts for fostex stuff.

its nice to have a machine that will stand up the rigors of use as well.
 
TSR-8 vs MSR-16

Hello,

I'm doing my homework, browsing, searching, etc.
Somebody has offered me a TSR-8 for 500 euros and a MSR-16 for 600 euros, plus a bunch of cables+some tape.
It's an decent price for my country (considering they are in good shape).

Of course I'm checking the heads, etc, but which one do you think is a better deck? Is there a big difference between boths (obviously apart from the numbers of tracks)?.

An a second question (probably I'm getting ahead of myself...) what kind of interface do you think I would need to send the recorded tracks in analog to my DAW for editing?

My DAW (AKAI DPS24) has 16 inputs but I reckon this way is not a good idea as I can't bypass the pres, because only 4 of them have inserts/send/returns.
On the other hand it has eight channels of ADAT in/out (upgradable to 24 via an expansion card) so I suposse I would need some kind of converter.

Thanks again
 
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