Micro Lynx + Tape Deck + DAW

miroslav

Cosmic Cowboy
I know some of you here use or have used the Micro Lynx to sync tape machines together...which is pretty straightforward with a 2-transport Micro Lynx.
My question is more for those who use or have used the ML to sync a tape deck with a DAW.

I know we've have similar discussions in the past....how to, and should the DAW be the master or the tape deck...etc....and while a Micro Lynx certainly simplifies those things and provides a more stable synchronizer for all pieces involved, there appears to still be a need for more than just the basic DAW/MTC and Tape/SMPTE stuff for absolutely accurate/stable sync.

In doing some research, I am seeing that some people suggesting that the best-case scenario is to feed video black-burst to the Micro Lynx and have that act as the reference clock...then feed Word Clock from the the Micro Lynx (assuming it has the ACG card installed) to your converters.
There's also been some comments that the internal clock in the Micro Lynx isn't stable enough.
Now....some of those comments may be related more to a video-post situation where tape and DAW are part of the equation, and hence the recommendation to use video black-burst as the "house reference"...but I'm wondering if that really is the best-case scenario for synchronizing DAW and tape deck when there is no video involved?

There was also the recommendation to feed BB to the Lynx while striping TC to the tape deck from the Lynx, otherwise if you add the BB afterwords, it's not going to be perfect sync.
All this may not be as critical in an audio-only SOP, and I'm thinking that without the BB as house reference, it's not going to be an issue just letting the internal clock of the Lynx be the reference...but I just want to be sure.

I mean....getting a black-burst generator is not that big a deal...they are not that expensive....just not sure if it's going to be needed?
The talk also mentioned that with the BB, and striping the tape while feeding BB to the Lynx...will allow you to use the DAW as the master and be able to maintain sample-accurate lock throughout....and that with the BB, stripping the tape while the deck is running free, will provide an almost W&F free operation once the deck is locked to the other pieces...that the SMPTE generated from the Lynx *with BB as reference* will ensure that.

Thoughts...?

I'll be right back, just going to get a couple of aspirins.... :)
 
OK...so I decided to go ahead and use a black-burst generator to provide "house sync" to the Micro Lynx.
At first I thought of just letting the ML use its internal clock for system reference and send WC out to the DAW, and that BB was mainly for applications that included video...but from what I've read, some of the more knowledgeable guys insist that you want BB feeding the ML.

The feeling is that WC is perfectly fine for system reference if the ML was going to be synchronizing digital-only gear, but that with non-digital transports, like my MX-80 tape deck, they like seeing BB as the system reference better than WC.
Stripping the tape deck in a free-run mode, while the ML is resolved to BB is the way to go, as it will make the tape deck run without any W&F...which means once stripped, even the tape deck can now be Master and the DAW would chase it without on-the-fly resampling....though DAW as master is probably the way I will leave it set up for now.

So...I got BB going to the ML....and then WC coming out of the ML feeding the DAW.
Tape is stripped in free-run, while the ML is resolved to BB.
DAW is set as Master with MTC feeding from the DAW into the ML, and the ML is reading/controlling the MX-80 off the SMPTE that was stripped to it.

Only "down-side" at this point is that the Micro Lynx doesn't have anything higher than 48kHz for the Word Clock...which is not a major PITA, though up to now I always did my DAW tracks at 88.2.
Since I'm mainly going to be dumping from the MX-80 to the DAW in one pass...I can still track at 88.2, just not while having everything synchronized through the ML...and if I want to keep the DAW and MX-80 locked for any projects, I'll have to just keep them at 44.1kHz or 48kHz, though I may eventually get a different box that can both output BB and higher WC rates, and just use that for the WC purpose, while feeding BB to the ML.
At this time I'm just using a basic Sigma video BB generator, so I have to use the ML for WC back to the DAW.

Seems like a lot of connections and futzing around, and I could just track top tape and dump to DAW without any sync...but I just wanted to have the full sync option setup, that way I could use any SOP I needed, maybe even at some point adding some audio-for video down the road.

No wonder these days recording newbs prefer to just do everything ITB! :D ;)
 
Wow. Awesome pair of posts. Keep us posted on how it works in practice! I have a Microlynx waiting to be paired up to my tape machine/DAW as well. I had simply been striping SMPTE to a track on the reel to reel and making the DAW chase...
 
I had simply been striping SMPTE to a track on the reel to reel and making the DAW chase...

I did that too before the ML...with my 16-track deck which has it's own synchronizer card, so the deck ran pretty solid, though certainly over time there would be drift that would be noticeable when dumping two different passes to the DAW. Also, with just the DAW chasing the deck, there's no clock reference to lock them both to...and the DAW could very well be doing speed variations in order to follow the deck's small fluctuations, which could affect the digital audio.
In many cases, you could get away with it and maybe do small adjustments to the tracks in the DAW....but it would never be 100%.

Tonight I did the first tests with the Otari, DAW and Micro Lynx...and apart from a couple of things I initially missed and spent a bit of time sorting out....it's working as it should, and they all lock and hold.
If you make your own cable for the ML and deck....pay close attention to the wiring diagram. I missed one pin assignment and was getting capstan errors registering in the ML. Wasted like 3 hours trying out various settings thinking it was that...and then I rechecked the diagram and pin assignments, and when I saw that one of them was for capstan pitch/speed control, I checked my cables and realized I missed that pin..... DUH!!!
Also...with the Otari, the audio is Pin 3 Hot....so, when I did the SMPTE track (CH-24) hook up back to the ML...I used the standard Pin 2 Hot configuration on the connectors....and the ML would not read the TC off the track. Unlike pure audio, even if the Pins were reversed, you would still get audio...but apparently with SMPTE it won't work...+/- has to be correct on the output from the deck to the ML....so that was my other "DUH!" moment.

So now I'm finally ready to do some tracks with the Micro Lynx in the mix.

If you have any specific questions, I might be able to answer them having gone through the whole setup from scratch.
I also have the ML manual and a lot of their cable wiring diagrams for various decks....they can be found on the internet, which is where I got them.
 
Hey Miroslav,

I've been away for some time -> all work, no play... But your post made me reactivate thy micro lynx and set up the DAW and ATR connection again, since I don't have any ties to video and you wanted input on an audio only use case. I've been on vacation for a week or two and since I've moved, it was the first time that I was finally able to put the studio back together again :) There are some postsin Cory's BR-20T story thread where we try and get the setup running and I wanted to pick up on that. I have the micro lynx with an ACG card and have no drift (< +/-0.04) with the current setup. I also get lock on all devices pretty fast if the ATR is near the position where I hit play in the DAW. This is how it is set up:

DAW sends 30.00FPS timecode via Midi Timecode Generator (MTC)
micro lynx sends WordClock to DAW Audio Interface
Channel 16 I/O on the ATR is connected to the ML's Timecode RDR 1 and Out respectively
Timecode (30Hz/30)is stripped on Ch 16 on the ATR-60/16 in free-run mode (Macro 9)
Of course ATR extension port is connected to e.g. Transport 1 connector.

Essential micro lynx config:

TCG: SystemRef = IntFix
TCG: System Spd/Code = 30Hz/30
TCG: Video Sync Gen = Off
MIDI: MIDI resolve = ACG Servo

I checked and it doesn't seem to matter if Searchmode is "Chase" or "Group", or Ref follow Mstr is "On" or "Off". So my group setup looks like this:

with Ref follow Mstr = On: [a t M*]
with Ref follow Mstr = Off: [a t* M]

I was planning to get something like the Lucid GENx192 to convert the ML's 48kHz to 96kHz and feed the DAW Audio Device with it but the product is discontinued and right now I don't plan on investing into new gear. I'm sure though, there should be some word clock converters somwhere. You approach with the BB feeding the ML and simultaneously generating higher wordclock might work, too, but I'm not sure. I'm always trying to keep it simple so now I have an ATR, the micro lynx and the DAW's sound card and don't need an additional device.

Oh, on a sidenote: One of my two micro lynx' died today :( so if anyone wants to part with one or two, I might be interested.

Cheers
Tim
 
Hi Tim
I've already crossed the tracks on the setup, and this is the one I'm using.

Aardvark Ardsync w/video generator sends black burst out to Micro Lynx, and simultaneously sends Word Clock to my converters/DAW.

I use the ML set with Ext Vid as the source reference, which is the BB.
I send MTC to/from the ML and the primary converter (I have three converters tied to the DAW for 24 channels).
I use 29.97DF as my rate because that us what works best/most accurate with black burst reference while maintaining frame-accurate sync.
I have SMPTE stripped on the Otari MX-80 and going to the ML.
The DAW is the Master and the Otari MX-80 is my slave.
[a t M*] with the M set for AGC Servo...I get three indivitual "L's" and and double LL on th right of the ML screen...so all three all locked.

The main reason to use black burst as house sync is because of the tape deck.
I found it's been discussed on a few forums where I did research on how to best hook this up, that black burst is THE absolute best case scenario when dealing with any analog/tape devices (audio or video).
You can make it work with other methods, but not as frame accurate against the tape TC.


By using the BB as the reference sync, when you stripe your tape in wild/free-run mode, while only the ML is resolved to the BB....you will then virtually eliminate any Wow & Flutter from your tape deck later on when you DO let the tape deck also resolve to the ML (which is resolved to the BB)...because then the resolved capstan will be constantly adjusted for perfect speed/sync against whatever W&F timming differences were there when running in wild/free-run mode.
Works perfectly...and the deck is running solid as a rock.
This assumes that your tape deck will allow the ML to have full capstan control and then resolve to the reference once it is stripped.

If you have the ML manual, it describes the process in there very clearly, and you have two macros built into the ML for this purpose... (#9 to stripe and #8 to return to normal)....you just have to make sure when you stripe that you use the correct reference sync, since the ML always reverts to IntFix.

I've tried it without the BB and instead used IntFix....and it locks fine...but it's the capstan control that benefits the most from using BB as your house sync rather than IntFix or external word clock.

The absolute precision may not be really noticeable for "Rock & Roll"...:)...but again, guys who do this for a living were all saying the same thing...use black burst as your house sync when dealing with any analog/tape devices, and let it drive the entire system. For a pure digital setup, you can just go with word clock or some other digital reference sync.

Prior to getting the Aardvark Ardsync w/video gen....I simply got a Sigma black burst generator box (like $30-$50 on eBay)...and that was working great, BUT, I needed multiple word clock outputs from the ML...which I didn't have.
So I would then need a WC distro box...or I just went with the Aardvark which gave me the multiple WC outputs plus video reference all in one unit.

This Aardvark also has the ability to do the higher (88.2/96) sample rates, but only on two of it's four WC outputs...:(...so I'm still not quite there, since I've always recorded at 88.2....but I'll eventually get a WC distro box, and then I can solve that too.
In the mean time, I may just record at 44.1 or 48...and not bother, because I've also added some sample libraries lately that are only 44.1, so I'm already stuck at that rate.
Mind you, I can dump the samples out to tape at 44.1....the track to tape everything else...then flip the Aardvark over to the 2X option and use two converters at a time, making two passes with the 24-track to dump everything back into the DAW at 88.2....but I may just skip all that commotion for now and roll with 44.1 or 48...which will also be good enough for "Rock & Roll"... ;)....but I'm keeping an eye out for an inexpensive WC distro box just to have anyway, so then I can do all three converters and a single pass dump from tape to DAW at the higher sampling rates.

By the way...I followed your lead on the cable connectors for the ML...and got all the parts from Mouser here in the USA...and it worked out really well. Thanks for that info you provided, since it made that part a lot easier.
 
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I was planning to get something like the Lucid GENx192 ...



Oh, on a sidenote: One of my two micro lynx' died today :( so if anyone wants to part with one or two, I might be interested.

There was a GENx on eBay just a couple of days ago...and I was looking at it, but didn't go for it...it sold for $365.

...

Also....I had an extra ML unit that I sold to another HR member just last week! :D :( ...sorry.
 
I started to get Capstan errors and the ATR didn't want to sync anymore; then a communication error. I checked connections and accidently disconnected the keyboard without powering down the system unit prior to that. After that I got 0016 and 0018 errors on startup and a communication error here and there. System Valid LED is on but Keyboard Valid LED is off. Both Data LEDs are blinking at different frequency; ACG LED ist also blinking and M3 card LED is off (although installed). I switched keyboards -> same symptoms. Disconnected the option cards (ACG, M3) -> same symptoms except for the option card LEDs being off of course. CLR + Sys and CLR + Setup (with Memory erasing) didn't help, either. Still the same symptoms. Another System Unit works fine with the same setup and both keyboards. Status for any component (TCG, Midi, Transports...) is unavailable because they're not "online".

Cheers
Tim
 
I did that a few times....disconnected the keyboard from the unit while powered up...and yeah, initially I got some errors when reconnecting hot, but then when I powered everything off and then back on....it all worked normally.
 
Yeah, that sounds like a logic fault. Given two of them it might be possible to trace the fault by comparison, but it doesn't sound good. Also I can't find a list of system errors online, though a service manual might have them if there is such an animal.
 
I tried to locate the error codes, too but my manual only lists the error categories 00xx -> System, 88xx -> AGC card for example. I don't think I'm going to compare the units just because I'd be to scared of frying the only system unit I have left. I don't think I can just call Timeline Service ;)

Cheers
Tim
 
58 months late to the party!

Hey folks, any of you have access to cable schemo's for the microlynx? All resources I've checked have dead links and I'm trying to sync the following:
Tascam MSR-16, Otari MX5050 MKIII-8 (later revision with 50 pin and 34 pin blue Honda connectors), a DAW.

Thanks for helping me de-zombify this old (but still useful) thread!
 
I've got schematics for most of the different decks from the Timeline period.

Here's a bunch of Tascam schematics....but I don't have one specifically for the MSR-16...so, you will have to figure out which of them will work for you....probably either the Type A or Type B...?

View attachment 70D086.PDF
View attachment 70D087.PDF
View attachment 70D094.PDF
View attachment 70D117A.PDF

I also have three different ones for MX5050 decks...again, there were different versions of 5050...so find the one that will work.

View attachment 70D077A.PDF
View attachment OtariMX5050_16Pin.PDF
View attachment OtariMX5050_34Pin.PDF

Often one wiring scheme might work for several models of the same brand, even though the schematic only lists one.
I used the "generic" Otari Type A for my MX-80 deck...and it would also work on the MX-70...likewise, the Timeline has no transport entry for the MX-80 deck, but they do for the MX-70, and it works perfectly with my MX-80. So, you probably won't see a Tascam MSR-16 transport entry...but there will be others, so find the one that works.

Anyway...figure out which schematic fits your decks.


Oh...just out of curiosity....
Do you plan on using the MX5050 to bounce tracks between the DAW and/or MSR-16...or are you going to use it just as a 2-track mixdown deck?
If it's just going to be a mixdown deck...you really have no need to sync it with the Timeline, so no need for a cable.
I've got an MX5050 MKIV-2 BIII I use for mixdowns...and I don't have it connected to the Timeline.
 
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Resurrection! You need the Tascam Type B cable for the MSR-16. It's also noted in the small rectangle in the 70D094.PDF that Miroslav posted so that is definitely the right one. According to the Appendix of the original manual that cable does not only work for the MRS-16 and TSR-8 but also for the MSR-24 and BR-20T. ✌️
 
Fabulous work folks! That was just perfect information flow, and thanks especially to miroslav for the PDF's, and to timkroeger for pointing out the callout in 70D094 for the MSR-16. I think the applicable drawing for the MX5050 I have is the one titled "OtariMX5050_34Pin.PDF", and thank you very much for including them both (as well as the others).

So to answer your question, miroslav, I plan on making all the possible sync options work for me, once I can get ahold of the required Microlynx, keyboard, and cables. I needed to start out by seeing what support data was available for the units before making a purchasing decision on either: Microlynx, Lynx II, or A/S Zeta III. I have recently aquired a Tascam MTS-1000 (at roughly the same time as I got the MSR-16), but am finding less info on the cabling for that unit and its necessary (and apparently rare) IF-1000 (if I'm to run that part of the system with the Otari).

By the way, the Otari I have is the MX5050 MKIII-8, which is an 8 track (I believe the last revision of that unit), so therefore the reason for my need to develop sync/transport control for it. With the MSR-16 and Otari working together, I'll get (minus the timecode and guard tracks) 20 tracks of analog, of two different qualities, and although not of Large Frame ATR quality (1"-16 track or 2" 24 track), I plan on using these to supplement a couple of DAWs (one 24 track Logic Pro, one variable track count Reaper/Cubase), and 24 tracks of ADAT XT (sync'ed by BRC & ADAT AI-2). So I will have most of the historical resolutions/ sonics covered by the array.

By the way miroslav- any chance you might have a schemo of the cable that would integrate the Microlynx with an Alesis AI-2?

Regarding the proper cable to link the Keyboard to the System Unit, are you folks using a standard RJ-45 terminated Ethernet cable, as suggested by some other posts I've read?

Also, to both of you (and anyone else listening)- it seems with my research so far that a fairly common complaint is that the M/L's power supply seems to break down more frequently than I would expect. In general, I would expect the lifespan of a power supply to be about 100,000 hrs. if designed decently; which equates to about 11 years of continuous use (most solid-state devices should last this long if not run to their limits). Have you found the stock OEM supplies to live shorter lives than this?

I happened to look into the matter while chasing the issue on another thread, and I think I found a problem with the specs listed in the manual, vs. the supposedly OEM supply that Timeline sourced for the unit (the ITE model #UP30430 you gratiously uploaded a picture of, miroslav). Either the manual had a typo that showed the "-12Vdc supply at 3A max", when it should have read "-12Vdc at 0.3A max", or the OEM supply was seriously underpowered, which might explain a premature failure of the part. Since the +and - 12Vdc supplies are (I presume without looking at an actual schematic) being used primarily as source voltages for the Capstan control function (possibly other items, such as Crystal Oscillators and PLL's), then they wouldn't necessarily have a constant current requirement that would blow up the supplies immediately, but might make them wear down more quickly than the 100,000 hour MTBF I mentioned earlier.

What's your experience with this? If necessary, I've already explored and spec'd a much healthier supply that would match or exceed the OEM Specs, and only cost about $18 USD apiece (plus some relatively minor costs for support cabling, power switch, and miscellaneous hardware). It would be a little bit of a project, but might last longer, with other improvements and advantages as well.

Thanks again for your responses thus far, and looking forward to the next round.
 
[MENTION=94267]miroslav[/MENTION]- earlier in the thread you posted:
"Also...with the Otari, the audio is Pin 3 Hot....so, when I did the SMPTE track (CH-24) hook up back to the ML...I used the standard Pin 2 Hot configuration on the connectors....and the ML would not read the TC off the track. Unlike pure audio, even if the Pins were reversed, you would still get audio...but apparently with SMPTE it won't work...+/- has to be correct on the output from the deck to the ML....so that was my other "DUH!" moment."

This is interesting as a technical point, because timecode (on tape anyway) should be essentially a true AC waveform (since tape heads have to read the magnetic flux that way, I believe), it isn't until it hits a realm such as an input to a logic circuit that it needs to be converted to a state-variable DC signal.
I believe that the term "Bi-Phase" applies here, which as I understand it means that the signal "zero" state is a high signal level that is pulled low to change it to a logic "one", essentially making digital signals cross an analog circuit path. I would think that the outputs of the Otari would be AC coupled (with a DC blocking cap large enough to not influence a significant portion of the AC signal, i.e. the lower frequencies), rather than DC coupled, as this would have been an unusual thing for an engineering team to allow potentially larger DC currents to flow out to the "outside world", causing thumps and reducing headroom for the next unit in line. It would normally be considered a rude flaw on the engineers' point, in other words.

When you recorded the timecode to the ATR, did you use an non-inverting cable going in, and then flip the cable polarity to try to read the signal back? If you didn't change the I/O polarity between recording and playback, why wouldn't the T/C reader interpret it correctly?

Also, I like your thinking about the blackburst as a house ref, though I will be looking at a unit like the Lucid SSG-192, rather than the Aardsync, only because I will be exploring the use of higher sample rates (well, up to 96kHz anyway) for at least a portion of my setup.

This is an excellent thread, thanks to all for much practical insight!
 
Pardon my temporary thread domination for a moment folks, but:
@ timkroeger- I presume that you swapped the keyboard unit between your two Microlynx systems, or did you keep them separate after you discovered the error codes/strange behavior? There might be a safe way to troubleshoot your system, even without schematics, and if you have the time your technical competence might allow you to at least tell whether the System Unit or the keyboard had gone bonkers. By inserting some small value resistors in the signal paths (in between the cables and the units, in other words), you might be able to check the keyboard's responses between the two system units without causing a dead short (in other words without causing a healthy unit to fail by corruption with a diseased one). I should think something in the range of about 1 Kilohm to 10 Kilohm would do it, and maybe start with the 10K first to check that the symptoms were consistent.

In most healthy electronic systems, a simple signal interruption wouldn't have caused a permanent failure, only an over voltage, or a dead short would. The system would have gone temporarily bonkers, yes, but would have returned to normal upon a proper power cycle/ reset. So my best guess with a permanent failure would be that either an input protection diode (either on a chip die, or on the PCB) shorted due to an overvoltage, or potentially an output device shorted, if the usual engineering techniques for I/O circuit protection were undone.

It's likely that by examining the schematics of the Lynx systems (some of which are online), it might be possible to ascertain what measures for circuit protection the Timeline team were using, and hopefully see whether a common, garden variety logic part was actually what took the hit, in your case. Only the rarest of parts, such as LSIC chips (typically those with 28 or more pins) would likely be irreplaceable, more often than not 14-pin chips (like most logic IC's of that era) can still be obtained. And hey, if it's a simpler part, such as a cap, resistor, transistor or diode, then it might be possible to get the unit up and running again!

EIther way, you'd at least know what your options were.
 
the Otari I have is the MX5050 MKIII-8, which is an 8 track

DUH!

I totally missed the "8"... and made the assumption it was a 2-track for mixing down. :D


Regarding the proper cable to link the Keyboard to the System Unit, are you folks using a standard RJ-45 terminated Ethernet cable, as suggested by some other posts I've read?

Correct.

it seems with my research so far that a fairly common complaint is that the M/L's power supply seems to break down more frequently than I would expect.

Don't know if this is really true. I think if anything, people when reselling, have lost their PS, and you just find a lot of the rack units and keyboards without them.
I'm still using an original PS without issues....but I do have a backup.
That said...please post a link to the PS you found that will work with the Timeline. I'm sure others may be in need of one at some point.

[MENTION=94267]

When you recorded the timecode to the ATR, did you use an non-inverting cable going in, and then flip the cable polarity to try to read the signal back? If you didn't change the I/O polarity between recording and playback, why wouldn't the T/C reader interpret it correctly?

Also, I like your thinking about the blackburst as a house ref, though I will be looking at a unit like the Lucid SSG-192, rather than the Aardsync, only because I will be exploring the use of higher sample rates (well, up to 96kHz anyway) for at least a portion of my setup.

This is an excellent thread, thanks to all for much practical insight!

I don't recall the cable for SMPTE thing...but if I wrote it down here, that's how it happened. :D
Not sure why or what...but apparently I had to keep the Pin 3 Hot at the Otari and Pin 2 Hot at the Timeline...the +/- had to be correct at both ends...which made it all work, and at that point my curiosity as to "why"...faded away. :)

The SSG is not an easy find, and the couple I've come across recently, were highly overpriced...but yes it goes to 192...thought TBH, there's little reason to do 96 or 192 unless you're running a world-class studio rig, and every piece of your signal chain is at that super high rez/quality level. I run at 48kHz....use to use 88kHz back in the day, but didn't find any real benefit from it.
Recording on the Tascam and Otari and converting, is not going to benefit in any way with any high sampling rates....IMHO.
The main reason I ended up with the SSG is because of its expanded BNC Word Clock outputs. I have multiple converter boxes, and needed to clock them from a single source. As I recall, my Aardsync boxes were one BNC short...or something like that. I really didn't get the SSG for the higher rates.

FYI...the Aardsync boxes are quite good, and I initially used them with a separate video BB generator box. I think I have at least two Aardsync boxes, and I think also a distro box and even some kind of SMPTE conversion box (or something like that, it's been a few years). I think some of them came with an internal BB generator card...and some didn't. It was an option.
You can find Aardsync boxes fairly readily on eBay. If you decide to go with them, and can't find one...post up, I may be willing to let one go cheap, since they're just eating up closet space.
 
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