Just some random thoughts on tape echo machines...

[cjacek]

Well, you know the ones, dedicated solely to tape echo, with several heads, endless tape loop and ability to tweak as desired. I'm sure they're cool sounding but don't you think they're grossly overpriced? What's even more troublesome is that hardly any of the sellers put up any photos of the heads. I'm surprised that any of them still have any life left, considering how they work. People blindly buy them like hot-cakes and never even assume this oft talked about point. How many of these machines have worn out heads, no high frequencies whatsoever as a result and still are praised for their "warm" tone. For one Roland space echo you could potentially buy 2 or 3 proper open reel machines with 3 heads and pitch control and do your own echo. Am I not reading this correctly or is everyone nuts?

I'VE INCLUDED A FUN POLL. No names will be displayed so don't be shy.

 

[Lance Lawson]

They actually sound better than anything else

 

[lo.fi.love]

I have a Tascam 34b that I've dedicated to loops + effects, and it's my "Tape Echo Machine To End All Tape Echo Machines"

I think tape echo machines are great for instrumentalists, but for the home studio it's redundant and expensive, aside from being just another piece of aging equipment needing maintenance.

 

[dodgeaspen]

Never had the $$$ for the echo's but I am working on using my Otari b3 and think it's cool. I think of it this way, if I just bought a tape echo that's all I can ever do with it, on the other hand if I buy a 3 head reel I can use it as a loop machine, echo machine, or a regular tape machine. I would think the reel to reel idea is a better value.

 

[cjacek]

They actually sound better than anything else

OK, granted, when you have life left on the heads but how do you account for seemingly hundreds if not thousands of hours of use on the units, which can actually move tape across the heads relentlessly fast, sometimes faster than an open reel deck. Why are people seemingly not interested in that aspect of operation? Those are high use machines, from what I've gathered, and if my math is right, the heads, on a good chunk of those machines are either heavily worn or beat to death. I mean, it's pretty much standard to ask about or inspect heads on a high speed tape machine, open reel but it seems that's not the case at all for those tape echo units. I've observed that people completely overlook this aspect and buy up those machines with seemingly no reason or sense. Would you buy a 1 motor tape machine for $500, with unknown history of use and no photos of heads or ability to inspect them? Isn't the machine worthless if the heads are shot or worn far from new? I kinda liken those things to the crazy prices Maxell tape goes for. You can get better, new tape for less. Seems crazy.

 

[cjacek]

I think tape echo machines are great for instrumentalists, but for the home studio it's redundant and expensive, aside from being just another piece of aging equipment needing maintenance.

I think of it this way, if I just bought a tape echo that's all I can ever do with it, on the other hand if I buy a 3 head reel I can use it as a loop machine, echo machine, or a regular tape machine. I would think the reel to reel idea is a better value.

Yes, that's my take on it too.

A tape echo box would obviously be best for someone on the road or to quickly plug something in, like maybe in a band or live concert, for convenience sake but other than that it's perplexing why someone would opt for it.

My biggest gripe still is the notion that people don't get the fact that the heads ware quite fast on those units and that people blindly buy them out, for crazy prices.

 

[cjacek]

Here's a thought and I'm not sure if this'll go anywhere but if you have some sound clips that you want to post, of whatever the machine is (be it an open reel, dedicated echo box or whatever else you've got....), it'd be cool to have a listen.

 

[VESSEL2020]

Alrighty,...
You brought me outta the woodwork, cjacek...

I had a hard time voting (still didn't) cuz, I would vote for both.

But "I" am one of those few that does ask about the heads, and motor promptly. That is the first question I ask when thinking about a purchase.
I ask the seller to send me close up pictures of the units heads, along with
how many owners, how much usage, etc.

I totally agree the prices these days are outrageous!
What I think is,..being the fact that most of the sellers are Japanese,
and live close to the original Roland company,..They were able to hoard these machines, lock them away, and keep them in a near mint state..
They know these machines are very well sought after by people in other countries, and can command an over-ridiculous-price for a 20 somethin' year old out of production machine.
Well, when the other sellers see this,..even if their tape echo isn't close to being in mint condition,...they think they can command the same price tag as the Japanese...which in my opinion,...is OUTRAGEOUS!
I've purchased all my tape echos quite some time ago, before this little phenomenon started,..in which I am proud to announce.

I am an electronic artist, an acoustic drummer, and a lover all that is analog.
I love the flavor these machines add to my synths, drums, vocals, & samples...and when I have someone over for a jam session, such as a guitarist,..(especially one that plays blues) they always want to plug into one of my very well cared for tape echos.
Each one that I own has its "own" sound,..Even the ones that I have doubles of.
I am a tape echo coniseur. It is an expensive hobby / addiction that I have, I have to admit.
If the machines are used properly, and maintained properly...
They will work flawlessly, without severe maintenance.
I haven't had one problem with any of my echo units, for 20 + years that I've been collecting them,..until recently a couple months back, when some severe humidity struck, and I had taken my dehumidifier over to my practice spot for a a week to record on location,..and when I got home the one day, and fired up one of my units...the tape shed all over the unit. There was nothing wrong with the unit itself,...just the tape.

I refuse to pay the outrageous prices the people on ebay are expecting.
Most of the units I've purchased were originally bought by me new, back in the day,...and the others I've purchased, were "one owner" units that I was able to inspect upon arrival.
I am VERY analytic of the gear I purchase...
and the same way, when selling a piece to a fellow buyer.

But yeah,..You are correct about the outrageous price tags.
I would much rather build my own custom unit, if I didn't already own what I already have. Most, if not all my machines,..will definitely outlive me.
...and I donot have any children to pass 'em on to. Not even a nephew, or neice. So,..maybe I'll pass 'em on to a close friend, that I believe is worthy enough, to keep 'em in the state they are in now.
I'm not planning on croaking anytime soon though!

Excellent thread!

I'm sure I'll be back

 

[cjacek]

VESSEL2020: I'm glad I was able to pull you out of the woodwork 'cause you make a bloody good case. I appreciate your input. Sorry if it seemed as if I dumped on the machines or people who owned them but, I guess, the issue is just plain being mad about how seemingly senseless a lot of buyers buy and in turn artificially escalate the prices. Don't get me wrong, mint units are worth the price but those are few vs the worn out door-stops that command high prices. No distinction seems to be made which is sad.

 

[jpmorris]

I'd very much like to know how you'd plan to get a multi-tap echo out of a 3-head deck.

 

[zorf]

I've been keeping an eye out for one, but they are stupid expensive.

plus, usually not maintained as well as your average 30 year old analog deck,
which is not saying much.

Still, they are more convienent than setting up a dedicated deck, don't you think?

 

[miroslav]

I have a Multivox MX201 (their version of the Roland Space Echo). I bought it new back in '77-'78. It got used in my band as our main (only) echo/reverb processor for a couple of years, and after that it became my recording echo/reverb unit.
I used it a lot during my 4-track R-to-R days...then there was a 6-year hiatus when I pretty much stopped playing/recording regularly.
Once I re-fired my studio interests around '89-'90...I began using digital units because they were all the rage and had all kinds of additional options/features, so the MX201 just sat unused for the most part.
The MX201 is still part of my current studio rig...and I'll use it occasionally, mostly for guitar stuff, but I have to say, I'm partial to my outboard digital reverbs when I'm mixing (which is always OTB).
AFA delay FX...that’s done in the DAW with a simple duplicate & offset track maneuver.

Granted, the tape delay has those beautiful imperfections that can do magic for some things, mostly on individual elements that can "absorb" the bad (noise) imperfections of the tape delay units...but IMHO it's really not the best choice for a main, Aux Buss reverb/delay processor.
But I guess if you're into "Lo-Fi"...then the added noise can be a welcome addition to tracks.
Tape delay is still fantastic on guitar...especially if you play with any kind of "grit" in your tone...which masks most of the unpleasant imperfections of the tape delay box.

One thing I've noticed about the transport on these endless-loop machines is that the tape is really not worked as hard/firm as on a R-to-R deck...though yeah, eventually the tape will grind down the heads.
My MX201 shows no signs of physical head wear...but I've not been running it non-stop for the last 35 years, and I don't know how many people really do…though I'm sure some more than others so that is a concern with being used units….and YEAH, the prices people ask are totally NUTS!!! Most of that has to do with hype/vibe…and the fact that there are only maybe one or two brands of tape delay still being today (like the Fulton box)…but none are of the “Space Echo” style with the multiple heads, etc, that I know of.

Even if ytou buy a used one that is not perfect...I see non-fucntional, parts-only units getting top dollar on eBay...so, you can always sell it back.

 

[Dr ZEE]

the "open market" prices for those machines are around 400-500 bucks with a swing.
For an authentic and highly desirable device that is no longer "commercially available" it's just an OK price. Nothing "outrageous" about it.

The condition of a unit is a seperate issue and it's a no-brainer, imo

Building your own is the way to go, if you can (meaning - willing to), of course. Not because you may save few bucks that way, but rather becuse you may get a BETTER device.

 

[VESSEL2020]

the "open market" prices for those machines are around 400-500 bucks with a swing.
For an authentic and highly desirable device that is no longer "commercially available"

Now, "That" price is NOT outrageous...

It's the ones with the $1000.00 price tag, and up
that I'm referring to.

If it is a well maintained machine in excellent condition,..and has some extra features,
like say, an RE-301, RE-501, or SRE-555 with sound on sound, and added
chorus feature,...then I can see the price being reasonable around the $800
mark.

But $1000.00 for a RE-201,...is just plain rediculous.

Give it 2-3 more years,..and they'll be askin' $1500.

 

[zorf]

i hadn't checked in a while, but just looked at ebay.

there were a bunch in the $500 neighborhood.

IF they didn't need any work done on them right away, thats not TOO outrageous i suppose.

i seem to remember seeing them at $700 and above last time i checked.

have they come down, or just the normal fluctuation from month to month?

 

[VESSEL2020]

i hadn't checked in a while, but just looked at ebay.

there were a bunch in the $500 neighborhood.

IF they didn't need any work done on them right away, thats not TOO outrageous i suppose.

i seem to remember seeing them at $700 and above last time i checked.

have they come down, or just the normal fluctuation from month to month?

No,..that would be right.
But you do get a joker here and there, that'll try to get away with the
$1000 price tag.
There is one RE-201 that has been sitting for quite some time,
that was mentioned to be in mint condition. Don't know if it's still up,..haven't checked in awhile.
The person first listed it about 6-7 months ago, and keeps relisting it.
They are the ones that would be responsible for the fluctuating prices.
Last year, a RE-201 in excellent condition could have been had for anywhere between $380 to $500.

Yeah, It's still there...but they decided to take the "MINT" off it, finally.http://cgi.ebay.com/MAKE-OFFERS-ROL...560?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cac282010

 

[Beck]

I couldn't really vote either. but I do think dedicated tape echoes are overpriced for what you get. I prefer analog (non-tape) effects processors and use digital as well since I can remember. (Ok since the 80's)

That being said I have a second Tascam 22-2 around just for tape echo, but don't use it much. It can be cool if you know all the tricks. You can do everything the little TEAC echo add-on unit can do using a mixer.

The important thing when using a digital delay for echo is that it's not simply a repeat, but should change in character... decreasing in high frequencies and level with each echo, like happens in nature or with tape echo. That is, if you're going for a more natural echo effect. My fav analog echo for guitar is the Rockman Stereo Echo. And I get great results with my Lexicon and Alesis digital processors. The algorithms are well thought out for more natural sounding echoes if that's what you dial in.

 

[lonewhitefly]

i think the prices are crazy because they are used more commonly as "vintage analog" guitar effects as opposed to studio-type use. i had a Korg Stage Echo for awhile but once i realized that you can use an open reel machine, i had a much easier (and less expensive) time dialing in the sounds i wanted. i use a 22-2 for delay (as well as some other uses every now and again) but you can really pick up any old tape deck in reasonably working condition, like '70s consumer type decks for dirt cheap. i see those teac 2300 decks for less than $100 in working shape and those work fine for echo (as well as playing back consumer tapes if you're into that). the thing is, i'm way less picky about maintenece, bias, etc on an echo deck ... you can pretty much just go with the wacky sounds. i like to experiment with old funky tape as well (sometimes tape that is damaged can make it sound cool).

 

[VESSEL2020]

Now,..This is a fine example of 20+ year old tape echo.

Someone must've treated it well.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Roland-RE-501-S...&otn=5&po=LVI&ps=63&clkid=4787287335088654537

 

[SteveM]

Nice! I'll to watch and see what that goes for.