Finding the right mixer for my Tascam 48 & Routing Questions

[hithere123]

I have been reading through years of your knowledge on these forums and have learned so much.

I am delving into analog recording seriously for the first time and recently just picked up a serviced Tascam 48 OB.

1. Is it normal for the capstan to start right when the machine is powered on?

2. I am also in the midst of finding the right mixer, and it seems some here are fans of the M 300 Series. They are much higher priced than they were some years back, and the M-1516 & 1508 are much more affordable than the M-308b / M-312. Is it really worth almost double or triple the price?

I am having a hard time understanding if these Tascam boards are one of the few models that allow you to easily switch between monitoring and recording without having to use extra cabling. As in do you simply go from Tape Out of the Deck to Tape in on the board?

For instance it seems you would need 16 tracks on another board to monitor and record without repatching? Am I understanding this correctly? It doesn't seem like A& H Mixwizards or Series 200 Soundcraft (No direct outs) boards have the ability that the Tascam does?

I am hoping to record to Tape, mix on the board, and send those EQ'd channels out separately to an 8 Channel interface into the DAW.

I appreciate any wisdom and time if you get a chance to answer my questions, I am strictly coming from the DAW world, so please forgive my ignorance.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Yes, the capstan spins while the machine is on.

"Inline" recording consoles let you easily switch between tracking and mixing modes. If you did a parallel setup(with a mixer not set up for inline) you would probably want a 24-channel console so you could have 8 channels* for effects returns etc. If the console doesn't have direct outs you could use either buses or the sends from inserts. A patch bay could come in handy.

*Having more channels than tracks is actually a good thing even if you have an inline console.

 

[hithere123]

Thank you for the response!

Very helpful.

I was actually wanting to ask why it seems many users often like having more channels than tracks. I was leaning toward getting a M316b or M1516 as it seems it can't hurt for more routing or submixing?

I was also trying to understand an old post from RFR about using an M320 with their tape machine and DAW with the flick of a switch. I would love to be able to do something like that with my 8 track setup.

"With the M520 and a 16 track. I have it set up like this;

Channels 1 through 16....tape in and outs via direct out
Channels 17 through 20....effects returns. So I have either 2 stereo returns or 4 mono
Usuallly I run stereo just for reverbs/delays.

All channels have direct inserts as well for individual effects on a specific channel.

In addition, I'm running protools through the console via the line inserts on each channel. So I can go back and forth from tape to protools at the flick of a switch."

 

[Blue Jinn]

The M520 is a heavy beast, but they can be had for pretty good prices, and are pretty flexible. I like the one I have, althouhh most of the meter lights have burned out. I see them around here on Craigslist hovering around $3-400.

There's also a similar but much older TEAC 15 that I think has transformer input mic pres.

 

[RFR]

I was also trying to understand an old post from RFR about using an M320 with their tape machine and DAW with the flick of a switch. I would love to be able to do something like that with my 8 track setup.

"With the M520 and a 16 track. I have it set up like this;

Channels 1 through 16....tape in and outs via direct out
Channels 17 through 20....effects returns. So I have either 2 stereo returns or 4 mono
Usuallly I run stereo just for reverbs/delays.

All channels have direct inserts as well for individual effects on a specific channel.

In addition, I'm running protools through the console via the line inserts on each channel. So I can go back and forth from tape to protools at the flick of a switch."

It will all make more sense if you watch some video’s
Thankfully our own member sweetbeats has a you tube channel called sweetbeats tech stop.

He has a series of videos extensively covering the routing, inputs/outputs and switching capabilities of the m520 . It’s no Neve or SSL, but it’s a monster of a mixer for what you can do with it.

Now if you’re running an 8track recording machine, there’s a smaller brother to the m520. The M512 . That would be just fine.
But for me I’m in the camp of ‘More Channels is Better’.

Anyway, check out his videos. They will give you a much better understanding

 

[bachelorb]

Two Really good videos that will make you think about routing.
YouTube
YouTube

The second one was done because I didn't want a patchbay. I have since learned the error of my ways.

I have a Tascam M-312b which I use to feed a 4 track tape player. One of the best features of the 312 (in my opinion) is channels 1-8 are normaled to the tape outs. So if I'm not using them for recording, I can take each track directly back through and into the daw as I'm recording.

My setup when tracking is CH 1-4 > Tape Return to DAW Ch 5-12 Recording inputs.

One thing to keep in mind with the mixer, is old stuff is going to break. I started with new mixers and eventually moved to older ones because the newer ones are harder to fix, and I am not an electrical genius.

my disclaimer- even though I've been doing this a while, I've gleaned a lot of helpful information from everyone on here who has posted above me. I don't think I'm wrong, but I KNOW they're not

 

[hithere123]

Thanks for the replies all!

I will study up on these videos.

I ordered a M-1516 for a decent price to get started with. The M300 series are currently going for a little more than I wanted to spend right now to get my bearings with learning routing.

Also leaves me a budget for some other pieces I am looking at.

 

[Chilljam]

The M1516 is a good mixer, great if you want 16 channel mixer but don't want something too bulky. The limitation with it compared to other 16 channel Tascam mixers is that it only has direct outs on 8 of the 16 channels, which is fine for you if you are only doing 8 track tape recording, but it didn't work well for me as I used it with a Tascam MSR16.

I upgraded to a M2516 which is probably a 40% bigger footprint than the M1516 but with all the features needed for 16 track tape recording and I could hear that sonically, it was an improvement over the M1516 as well.

 

[motterpaul]

It is confusing but it helps to understand the history methodology of multitrack recording.

Originally, recording mixers had built mic preamps with transformers - which has bulky and expensive since most of the time (except for drum & rhythm tracks) you were only using one or two mics at a time anyway. Those mixers also had a "producer's desk" which was a subset of small-throw faders with pan pots that came off the tape recorder. You generally monitored through these from what was coming from the tape recorder rather than live mics since when you are recording or in sel-sync it is real-time anyway. The only time you used the playback head was for mixdowns. Here is a 1980 mixer with a producers subsection (no fader, just pots).

It is the section where someone put numbers 1-8 on white sticky paper. It says "Line" and "level" and "pan"



Then - a lot of engineers started routing the playback of the tape through empty channel strips, so they could start to mix with the EQ and other goodies. That way they could start to mix the recorded tracks while they were also tracking overdubs.

Then a lot of engineers realized a clean path to the recording media from the mic pre-amp was actually better, so the concept of external mic preamps became popular. Doing that, you could monitor through the mixer using the channel strips, and the mic did not even have to go through the console. This is essentially how ProTools was developed.

So - your challenge is deciding how to monitor the tape deck. Ideally, you want to be able to hear what is actually on tape, without all the plugins (although this rarely happens in ProTools) or without all the EQ you have on a mixer. But today's mixers do not have producers desks, they just have "tape in" buttons on the channel strips that let you feed that channel with a tape track instead of a mic.

So - you have two choices, either monitor through the channels (so you need more channels) or look for a mixer with a producer's desk. Or you could possibly find a small submixer to use to monitor tape playback, but that is probably overkill.

 

[miroslav]

Those mixers also had a "producer's desk" which was a subset of small-throw faders with pan pots that came off the tape recorder.

Ahh...why do you call that the "producer's desk"...?
That's not what that is.

A producer's desk is just a piece of furniture to one (or both) sides of the console, so that a producer can sit there and write notes, drink coffee, and act like he's in charge.
It has nothing to do with any of the console controls or channel strips.

The empty desktop to the right side of the console shown here is the "producer's desk".

 

[RFR]

The M1516 is a good mixer, great if you want 16 channel mixer but don't want something too bulky. The limitation with it compared to other 16 channel Tascam mixers is that it only has direct outs on 8 of the 16 channels, which is fine for you if you are only doing 8 track tape recording, but it didn't work well for me as I used it with a Tascam MSR16

If I recall correctly, it is an 8 track machine he’s running. So the M1516 should do the job just fine. Can be run as a split console, and all the channel settings for tracking never have to be messed with.

 

[sweetbeats]

Ahh...why do you call that the "producer's desk"...?
That's not what that is.

A producer's desk is just a piece of furniture to one (or both) sides of the console, so that a producer can sit there and write notes, drink coffee, and act like he's in charge.
It has nothing to do with any of the console controls or channel strips.

The empty desktop to the right side of the console shown here is the "producer's desk".

View attachment 106258

Yeah I was thinking the same thing. What he’s referring to is called the monitor mixer on that M-300 mixer he has pictured. Or if it has monitor return faders and pan controls or otherwise some controls to monitor a second source (such as tape returns) inline with an input channel strip that is just inline monitoring...not a “producer’s desk”.

 

[sweetbeats]

If I recall correctly, it is an 8 track machine he’s running. So the M1516 should do the job just fine. Can be run as a split console, and all the channel settings for tracking never have to be messed with.

I agree...plus the M-1516 features inline monitoring via the “DUAL” input feature...should accommodate the OP’s setup quite nicely.

 

[motterpaul]

Ahh...why do you call that the "producer's desk"...?
That's not what that is.

A producer's desk is just a piece of furniture to one (or both) sides of the console, so that a producer can sit there and write notes, drink coffee, and act like he's in charge.
It has nothing to do with any of the console controls or channel strips.

The empty desktop to the right side of the console shown here is the "producer's desk".

View attachment 106258

Call it whatever you want. I owned & worked in recording studios starting in 1975. I owned a studio with an original Allen & Heath mixer that has a manual that refers to the monitor section as the "producer's desk" or some people called the "monitor section" the point is what it does, not what it is called.

 

[miroslav]

... the point is what it does, not what it is called.

The point is that there is accurate audio terminology, so calling it "whatever you want" doesn't work...it only misleads people who are here to learn.
What Allen & Heath had in some manual doesn't follow what the rest of the recording industry calls a "producer's desk".

 

[skywaveTDR]

Forget the Model 15 as that is too old. I have a M520 and a model 50 as well. I do not do recording like you do as I am no musician but used them for control of many decks I had at the time. The M520 is a great mixer. I had just repaired a M2516 mixer not too long ago and it had a number of things wrong with it. I ended up resoldering all the buss connections and also the power supply that had broken solder joints on it. It was working 100% after about 10 hours of work on it.
Any mixer you consider can be determined suitable by examination before you get it by study of the block diagrams and signal path diagrams. You don't need to know electronics for this. Just an understanding of Buss and line ins and so forth. I think if you have a DAW hooked up the consideration to have 8 channel of effects can be worked down to two or 4 as the Aux lines would provide. 8 channel of effects can get expensive and you can do a couple tracks at a time to gain the effects if not apply them through software. Why else use a DAW if you want to do all of it by effects in the analog domain.
I have used the M320 when I was at a Church Studio and I did FM broadcasts and also recorded demo tapes through it with no problems.
I have worked with most mixers that Teac had made as I was there repairing them and even do so now as space will allow.