Digital question for analogue recordists

D

Ding Dong

New member
Hello everyone. Sorry this is so long...

I have a question about purchasing some digital equiptment, but im posting it here because I am only interested in hearing the opinions of those who primarily use analog equiptment. My setup is a hybrid, as I assume many of yours are. I also think analog fans have great ears and will be better judges on almost all audio issues.

anyway...

I am a fairly serious home/mobile recording guy, and I do most of my work on a tascam TSR-8 machine. Ive only been doing this seriously for a little while though, and i still need some help. I record drums, bass and guitars on tape. I usualy use computers as a final step, mixing down in stereo to my hard drive, and sometimes to record vocal tracks when a lot of editing is required. I recently aquired an awesome beast of a computer and Im looking to make the most of it in combination with my analog equiptment. Its a G5 IMac w/ 1.5 gigs of ram. my question is this:

Is there a point in me buying an audio interface with 8 inputs? Would it be pointless to record to tape and then DirectOut each track to its own computer track? Would a basic 2 channel interface make more sence? Im interested in knowing what kind of equiptment you guys use to make the jump to digital. my current setup is thus:

-TSR-8
-Allen&Heath 16 channel mixwizard
-7 pretty nice mics (2x AT4040, MD421, SM57, M201, D112, etc...)
-3 pretty bad mics
-DBX compressor (2 channel)
-big computer
-lots of not very nice cables
-minimal effects (one old delay unit, that's it)
-headphone amp
-KRK 6" monitors

*ANY* advice you could give me would be awesome. Im ready to take this sucker to the next level. Im ready to spend about $600.

Thank You!!
- Mike
 
Depends on how you want to work.

I use 6-8 pcs here, all sync'd together, some with 16 inputs via cards and one with 48 inputs (between 3 installed cards). In cases where I transfer stuff from analog (tsr8, 8516b, msr24) I can do it in one pass, which saves time.

For analog transfers I do route separate incoming tape tracks to separate Nuendo tracks. In that way, I can easily work on individual tracks...clean up noise, hum, pitch, noise gate, transpose, cut and fly to new sections, completely cut the song up to make new arrangements, re-eq individual tracks, have individual tracks archived and saved on backup dvds for future remixes or other uses etc etc. Obviously, a multichannel sound card makes transfers happen faster.

I don't do this next one... but there is also another technique that one can take advantage of on say a tsr8 and a computer with an 8 i/o card.....

Record 8 tracks.

Dump all to the computer to separate tracks via the analog i/o of an 8 channel card.

Then, record a reference mono or stereo mix of what's in the computer...piping that out the computer and into 2 tracks of the tsr8.

While listening to the mono or stere tape ref tracks, fill up 6 more tape tracks.

Dump those 6 individual tracks to 6 new tracks in the computer...don't
worry if none of them line up in time with the 8 you just dumped in previously.

Erase the 6 tracks on the tsr8...KEEP those two ref tracks though...or, if you have a lot of tape..don't erase anything. Just print the ref mixes again, further up on the same tape where it's blank...or on a new reel.

Overdub 6 more tracks of analog "stuff".

Dump those tracks to 6 tracks of the computer.

etc
etc.

Once you're done, you'll have a bunch of analog takes in the computer...even though you only had a single 8 track machine to work with. At that point, you can move/nudge tracks around to get them all in sync (one keystroke to do this in Nuendo). This would all be really time consuming if only working with a 2 channel audio card.

And as yet another option for the way you work...once you had your tracks and mix coming togther in the computer, you could (if you wanted to) pipe that stereo or surround mix out your 8 channel card and record the final mix into empty tracks on your tsr8...basically giving you analog mixdown on top of analog tracking.

AND, for safety, you could then pipe that final mix that's sitting on two tracks of your tsr8 BACK into your computer for safe keeping. In any of these scenarios, you won't be lose any generation of sound in the process.
 
Out of curiosity, when you say "mixing down to my computers", are you referring to moving the sliders in your software window?

I offer this, and please understand it is my true belief, not because of any political or fad thing going on, but my true belief in the way I think one can get the best mix. Mix realtime, live on a board. I have cut-ins and neuances that if I cut and pasted, would still not give the fluency on the final recording, that is, be it digital or analog, the character and "real" feeling, from working the sound in a computer.
I have a theory, and am hell bent on this with what I hear until I hear, not read, something that convinces me otherwise....analog or "real" sounds are what most people are trying to capture, not all. Record analog everything if you want a "true" sound up until the final moment that you have to convert to 1s and 0s. We all transfer to digital (most, I guess) to get onto CD, or .wav, mp3, etc. to share in the digital domain. But DURING the recording process, my advice is to get as pure as you can until the final moment of conversion. Do I think it makes a difference in sound. Absolutely, and a large difference to my humble ears.
My equipment goes something like this:
Guitar: LP Std, Fender Am. Strat, etc. to either JCM800 half stack (original) or '65 Super Reverb r.i., all analog stomp boxes. The guitar sound is my bread and butter, so I refuse to assimilate anything except for the inherinent signal path associate with such.
Bass: Fender Jazz Deluxe into Joe Meek channel into board to reel.
Drums: OK, here's my digital sellout...DMPro kit, finely tuned by yours truly to match acoustic kits, through Mackie 8-bus pres to tape and back.
Vocals: JM47 condenser through Joe Meek through Mackie (DI) to tape and back.

Post recording path:
Mackie board to A.R.T. EQ to A.R.T. Pro VLA to TASCAM CDRW-700.

I have heard from Blue Bear (gear pimp) that the Alesis (forget the model number) CDR deck is far superior to my TASCAM, and by reading the features would probably agree, though soundwise the TASCAM converts to evil digital and seems to do a fine job from what my ears can tell.
Hope this answers your question in long format. If not, I will gladly elaborate or confine any area of question. Good question, btw.
 
$600 is more than enough money to get a digital 8-track interface.

You probably already know this, but tape adds a very nice quality to the sound, which you definately would regret giving up if you just dumped your TSR-8 out the window.

There's no shame in dumping all 8 tracks to their own digital tracks to do more editing. There's no shame in dumping them back to tape. All your call.

-callie-
 
In my own setup, I have a 16 track or 8 track machine that I mix down to digital. However, the card I use to go to digital is a Delta 44, which gives me up to 4 tracks into the computer. Most of the time I only use the 2, but if there are a couple tracks that I want some complicated digital effects used, such as a reverse reverb or delay or something, then I can use a direct out for that track into track 3 or 4 of the Delta. I find it's much easier to mix analog than within the computer, so this sort of hybrid set-up makes it easiest. If you're used to mixing analog, I'd say stick to that, because it can be a real pain to mix digital. But, try it out, and see how you like mixing digital just to see. To be honest, even though I prefer the sound of analog, it's the ease of mixing with a real console that will always keep me grounded to it. Maybe a friend of yours has some raw tracks you can input into your computer setup now that you can attempt at mixing to see if you like the feel.

It's also nice when you're mixing down, as I do, to have this extra track or two in the computer. For instance, although I've never tried mixing down to four channels of sound, I could through the group outs on my mixer into my Delta 44.

-MD
 
Thank you guys very much for the info. I really liked the idea about mixing down to CPU and then back to tape to get more analog tracks to work with.

I definatley prefer mixing with my board. Allen&Heath makes awesome stuff and its simply a joy to mix with. Im not going to switch that part of my setup over to digital anytime soon... The original concern for keep seperate tracks on the computer was to edit, not mix or EQ them. Like for example if a singer thought one of his words/notes was too loud or quiet. Plus I've worked with a lot of clients who change their mind about volume levels daily, and it can be frusterating to explain to them, "well if you want the more treble on the bass, we're going to have to remix..." bla bla.

Anyways, I really apriciate the advice. I guess I'll go w/ 8 channels- better safe than sorry.

BTW, I got a bunch of negitive rep points for this thread! Looks like I offended some digital fans. What are they doing here anyway?? :D ;)
 
A few years ago I had a card with only 2 inputs, and an 8 track tape deck. I recorded a single click at the beginning or end of each of the 8 tracks. I don’t remember but it doesn’t matter. In other words, I recorded the click on each track at the same time. After I copied 2 tracks at a time to my PC, I aligned the separate clicks on each track with Cakewalk. It worked great. If when doing it that way, something appears to be too far out of sync, just grab the part that’s out and slide it into sync. Oh ya, it's okay to delete the clicks when you're done. :p
 
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