388 User Leveling up to M3500

If you already own a MSR16S, preserver with it, it is a fantastic machine. If you have any problems with the Dolby S cards I have threads all over about it. By the way there were some Dolby S machines with slightly different cards that seem to not give problems, I now have these installed. I should have pointed out that even though I have 2 machines one is that spare parts machine.

Alan.
 
Yes the guy I bought it from said it was night and day difference in quality over the other noise reduction quality.

Thanks for these words. Hope it works when I finally switch it on!!
 
So Alan, I reviewed your website and I think I can certainly learn from your workflow based off the images of your setup.

Q to both of you...and the meat of what I'm not understanding: what does Brauer mean when he says he uses his 4 busses to A/B compressors??

I'd rather not have the LA-4A live on Channel X and Distressor on Channel Y, but the way to free them up is through a snake and the channel inserts to my Patchbay right? I don't even know what that looks like since the M3500 requires the Y cable rather than a typical ts like I would use on the 388
 
witzendoz said:
As a rule compressors are used on inputs and effects are used on sends. If you plug a compressor into a channel insert it will work on that channel. If you plug a compressor into the buss insert it will work on everything sent to the buss.

Alan.
Click to expand...

So a single channel compressor can work on multiple signals? Does the MS3500 have these buss inserts of which you speak? Do you have to make stems in a certain way to keep the insturments and frequencies similar?
 
Hmmm I'm gonna chime in on the workflow. I'd be willing to guess you haven't used the msr16 yet. When i first got mine i had grandiose ideas of keeping and using my 8 track still so I could have 24 tracks. Well that idea lasted about a month. :D
I ended up just transferring all my 8 track stuff to the msr and sold the 8 track.
And that was in the days before daws.

The msr16 is a fantastic machine. I have the dbx version and have done a lot without any noise reduction. Still sounds great.

In the real world I'll put down ideas in the daw or to a yamaha 4track minidisc recorder, but when it comes to actuall recording I use the msr then dump the tracks into Protools.
I can't see how you'd need the other recorders you have once you dig in to using the 16 track . Unless like sweetbeats says, you're looking for that particular sonic character.

Im running mine with a M520 desk. It has 20 channels. 16 are tape and the other 4 are mostly used as returns for reverbs and such. Almost everything else is going directly into the channels i want to effect.

Pretty simple setup. No need for me to get too complicated for rock and roll. Even with always doing live drums, I haven't found much need for more than the msr16.
I will however do some overdubs in the daw, or extra stuff.
I can then either mix itb or bring it all back via stems into my console and do final mixes on the desk with analog outboard.

To me, rather than using plug ins that simuate analog gear, I just use analog gear. :D
Running stuff through the board just sounds better (to me)
 
Cheers man. I appreciate hearing about your setup. Are you using group send/returns or busses to compressors? This is what I'm struggling with and I feel like keeps getting lost in the thread. I found one video on YouTube that was sorta dealing with this, but the guy was using all stereo comps. I want to keep my Chameleon Labs 7720 for the main stereo/master since it has sidechain for the low end, and possibly use an LA-4A and Distressor to compress groups of instruments, but I don't under stand how or if it's recommended.

WIth regard to your statement about the other machines, yeah I keep them around for the sonic character, but also, I have no idea if the MSR-16S works yet :)
 
The Fulltone Tape Echo is a guitar pedal. So in order to interface it with line level gear, one needs to use a Reamping device in order to change the input to Hi-z
 
rorohello said:
So a single channel compressor can work on multiple signals? Does the MS3500 have these buss inserts of which you speak? Do you have to make stems in a certain way to keep the insturments and frequencies similar?
Click to expand...

The M3500 has channel inserts, Buss inserts, and main left / right out inserts. They use a standard TRS stereo jack to 2 mono jack Y connectors. The level of the insert sends is at -10dB but I use lots of +4 dB gear no problems by just using the gain and volume trim on the compressors etc. By the way the M3500 can take a ton of input gain without distorting, none of this wimpy digital gain nothing in the red LOL. In fact I find that my M3700 likes to be pushed hard level wise and actually sounds better this way.

Regarding the patch bay thing. I have a TRS multicore from the console to the patch bay in the rack. The patch bay jacks are wired so that if nothing is plugged ti the Tip and Ring are connected so that way I can leave the RTS jacks plugged into the inserts all the time.

Alan.
 
rorohello said:
Cheers man. I appreciate hearing about your setup. Are you using group send/returns or busses to compressors? This is what I'm struggling with and I feel like keeps getting lost in the thread. I found one video on YouTube that was sorta dealing with this, but the guy was using all stereo comps. I want to keep my Chameleon Labs 7720 for the main stereo/master since it has sidechain for the low end, and possibly use an LA-4A and Distressor to compress groups of instruments, but I don't under stand how or if it's recommended.

WIth regard to your statement about the other machines, yeah I keep them around for the sonic character, but also, I have no idea if the MSR-16S works yet :)
Click to expand...

You talking to me Alan or both? :)

I have 4 sends and 4 returns as well as inserts in the 8 busses.

Most of the time I'm using two returns for reverbs as a stereo return. Reverb is the one thing that is globally applied. If I'm doing compression on the sends and returns it usually is going on the drums.
The drums are still on individual channels, but using the sends and returns sets up a, I guess you would say, parallel compression.

If I want to limit a snare, or just compress that, I'd also put a compressor in the insert on just that channel

My inserts on the 8 busses go unused except for 7 and 8. Here I'll put a comp or something that effects the whole mix.

The M520 even though it's an 8 buss mixer they're only usefull for tracking. Other mixers have in addition to the busses, a master fader (s)

So my buss 7 & 8 are what feeds my two track. On mixdown, the only time busses 1 to 6 are used are if I'm mixing down to more than one 'machine'. For example, I can run a mix to a tape machine, while buss 6 & 7 are sending a mix to protools,
I don't know why tascam neglected putting in a seperate master, but oh well, I'm used to it. :)

Hope any of all that made sense. :D

So I'm getting that both the mixer and tape machine haven't been used yet. Is the power supply for the m3500 the reason?

Get one and hook it up, and then fire those babies up.
:D

I'm reall happy with my setup, and from what i know the m3500 has more features than the m520.
You'll have lots of options once you get to know it.

One bit of advice. Don't drive yourself crazy trying to figure out your workflow on paper. While it's good to plan, the reality of hands on will make things fall into place.

The best way to learn how to drive a car, is by driving a car, this is no different. :D
 
rorohello said:
So Alan, I reviewed your website and I think I can certainly learn from your workflow based off the images of your setup.

Q to both of you...and the meat of what I'm not understanding: what does Brauer mean when he says he uses his 4 busses to A/B compressors??

I'd rather not have the LA-4A live on Channel X and Distressor on Channel Y, but the way to free them up is through a snake and the channel inserts to my Patchbay right? I don't even know what that looks like since the M3500 requires the Y cable rather than a typical ts like I would use on the 388
Click to expand...

Brauerizing: A How To Guide | Brauerizing: Techniques and Concepts

G

Screenshot_2018-10-25 Solid State Logic SL 9000 J Series Operator's Manual (Page 17 of 415).png
 
witzendoz said:
The M3500 has channel inserts, Buss inserts, and main left / right out inserts. They use a standard TRS stereo jack to 2 mono jack Y connectors. The level of the insert sends is at -10dB but I use lots of +4 dB gear no problems by just using the gain and volume trim on the compressors etc. By the way the M3500 can take a ton of input gain without distorting, none of this wimpy digital gain nothing in the red LOL. In fact I find that my M3700 likes to be pushed hard level wise and actually sounds better this way.

Regarding the patch bay thing. I have a TRS multicore from the console to the patch bay in the rack. The patch bay jacks are wired so that if nothing is plugged ti the Tip and Ring are connected so that way I can leave the RTS jacks plugged into the inserts all the time.

Alan.
Click to expand...

I think we are beginning to use language that's different form the manual (which I'm trying to read at the same time) so this is all getting confuddled ;)

I see and understand the "channel inserts" -- no problem there, but I think it's a bummer that they require y cables. No one still has stated whether I will be able to use my DBX patchbay (which can be normaled or half normaled) with the setup. If I can what exactly does that look like? I need a TRS coming out of the rear of the machine, into the Y (split cable) on the rear of the patchbay for each channel I want to be able to patch? How much are these cables a piece? Can you run them at length or do they loose impedence?

I don't see anything in the manual on the back of the machine that says "bus inserts" I see "GRP Insert" and "GRP Out" are these what you are referring to? Can I set these up for my single channel compressors to avoid having to do the patchbay thing and all new cables outlined above?
 
I just read this and it's exactly what I'm trying to understand and try. Thank you so much for posting!

I think terminology is getting swapped around again and again and it's causing me problems with the big picture -- since this picture is a lot bigger than the back of a 388!

What I need is a primer on the differences (or if they are sometime synonomous) of Auxs/Busses/Groups with respect to the M3500

I apparently have 6 Auxs on the M3500. Are those the same thing as a Group?

In the Brauer piece, it uses the language Busses:

"the SSL’s routing matrix in order to take the individual channels of the mix to the ABCD busses and sets the routing to post-fader, allowing any channel fader movements to affect the input of the ABCD busses. The ABCD busses are then routed to the Stereo Bus"

I know I don't have an SSL, but I think I have the ability to route to groups (or busses) post fader and then route to the stereo bus correct?
 
rorohello said:
I see and understand the "channel inserts" -- no problem there, but I think it's a bummer that they require y cables. No one still has stated whether I will be able to use my DBX patchbay (which can be normaled or half normaled) with the setup. If I can what exactly does that look like? I need a TRS coming out of the rear of the machine, into the Y (split cable) on the rear of the patchbay for each channel I want to be able to patch? How much are these cables a piece? Can you run them at length or do they loose impedence?
Click to expand...

Yes you can still use the 'Y' cable with your patchbay. The difference is you'll have one cable coming from your mixer's inserts rather than two. So you got less spaghetti. :)

Cost? I don't know. Check sweetwater or some such retailer. I make my own cables so I'm no help with pricing.

Length. Stay under 20 feet and you've got no issues. I imagine you'd want your patchbay close enough to easily acess anyway.
 
You don’t just split a TRS - TRS cable with a ‘Y’ cable when using it with an insert point. You need an insert cable. Typically the tip is the send, the ring is the return, and the sleeve is the ground in the TRS insert jack, so the cables you want are an insert cable which goes from a TRS plug on one end to two TS plugs on the other. The tip of one TS plug is connected to the tip of the TRS plug (the send), and the tip of the other TS plug is connected to the ring of the TRS plug; the return. This is an insert cable.

Longer cables don’t “lose impedance”. Impedance is a measure of resistance. The longer the cable the higher the impedance or resistance. But you’d have to have cable runs hundreds of feet long before you needed to even think about that. As stated above, keeping unbalanced cable runs below 20-25 feet or so is good practice primarily to minimize the opportunity for noise inductance...use good quality shielded cable.

A “BUSS” in audio terms is a signal pathway that can carry multiple signals from one place to another, like a bus carrying people. SO...your M-3500 has AUX busses, group busses (GRP), and a main buss (L-R). It also has a SOLO buss. “Group” with respect to a mixing console usually refers to the subgroup or “mix” busses...Tascam and others also used the term program group, or PGM. Look at your 388. It has eight PGM group busses. You will also see the term summing buss. Typically any BUSS on a mixing console has the capability to sum or combine multiple signals. Hope that helps. BUSS is the overall term for a signal pathway that can carry multiple signals, and “groups” (aka subgroup, mix group, mix buss, program group) are a set of busses on a console to which you can route or assign inputs from multiple sources and channels and combine them and then send them somewhere else, like to a tape machine...and your AUX and main busses do the same thing, but they are intended for different purposes. AUX busses are typically used for monitor mixes and effects sends, and the main buss in a studio setting is usually used at mixdown to sum signals to make your stereo mix.
 
Thank you Sweatbeats for that primer. I wish the start of the M3500 manual was as clearly stated.

Gary, the patchbay is a 48 point 1/4" TRS https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PB48--dbx-pb-48

I don't see those cables by using the "cable finder" system on Sweetwater, but I'll give them a call.

Onwards! And I hope this thread can continue to serve others if more of these dinosaurs start getting put to use :)
 
Just search for “insert cable” or use that term when you talk to the folks at Sweetwater. HOSA makes them for sure and they even have entire insert snakes.
 
Ok. Thank you to everyone who reviewed and chimed in.

I'll post an update once I get the PSU and cables to set everything up.

Alan, maybe I'll be shipping this deck to you for scraps...who knows.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top