1W vs 15W??

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phy61

New member
Hello,

I have a Laney 212R guitar amp. It has two power modes, one is 15W, other one is 1W (in fact "<1W"). Is loudness the only difference between them? Or 15W supposed to sound better? I can't really tell if it's better or just louder. Is there anything wrong with recording with the 1W input? 15W is pretty loud. (And I got the one with 2 speakers for no reason like a moron)

If watts only change the loudness, why do people pay a ton for big amps? Thank you.
 
Trust your ears! Does it sound better to you? Then its better.

If you're looking for what other people think, I've read some interviews with various artists (Ratatat, Queen) that have said that tiny amps are great for recordings and actually sound louder in the context of a mix.
 
If was wasting some time in a city yesterday, waiting for apple to fix my computer. I walked past a music shop and heard a guitar being played so I went in and discovered the guy behind the counter playing through a toy like thing that looked like a Marshall stack but about ten inches tall.

Sounded fine in the street.

You need to think about what happens when a loudspeaker does it's stuff. At basic level, it moves air, compressing it and then sucking it back. Producing air pressure changes you hear as sound. Big speakers move more air and they can compress/decompress it more. However, they move quite a bit so the changes in pressure are not quite the same as with a tiny speaker doing little compressions. Think about blowing up a kiddies swimming ring. First breath goes in with no effort, last breath hurts your lungs. Lots of watts are needed to move lots of air, and an 8x 10" cab does it differently to a single 21" sub. Every different system of generating differences in air pressure is unique in how it sounds. Stick your Marshall stack on the top of Mount Everest and I doubt you would be impressed with the sound, as the air is thinner.
Your laney uses the same speaker and amp so the two settings will be very close in tone and just louder. Technically, moving more air works the cone harder and depending if it's made from plastic, paper or metal, subtle things happen, and it will sound different, and of course higher volume works the amp harder and it may start to distort too. Turning down my guitarist friend's amp makes it sound cleaner. I like it, he hates it. My 8 x 10" cab never works hard and seems to me to sound the same at master volumes from 1 to around 6. To make it change it needs whacking up, and then people complain their insides rattle.
 
phy61 said:
If watts only change the loudness, why do people pay a ton for big amps? Thank you.
Click to expand...

No...it doesn't just change loudness.
It changes compression, it changes headroom, it changes how the frequencies are translated out the amp through the speaker, it also changes how the speaker works, and it changes how your guitar and you interact with the amp and speaker.

Until you actually buy or play enough amps, and also some bigger wattage, higher end amps...words will never accurately describe what you will hear.
I've got a bunch of amps...a couple of them are 20W combos, the rest are all 50W, and I've got a 100W getting built.
I tried some 5W amps way back, then got rid of them and never thought about them again.

You can get some nice tones out of 5W amps...you get some nice tones out of amp simulations...but regardless what some folks will say, none of those can actually measure up to or sound like a high end, higher wattage amp, when opened up right up to the brink of distortion, and if you stand close to the speaker, you can feel the air move on your legs...or if you dial in a clean tone, the notes just take on bigger than life, bell-like purity and clarity.
 
phy61 said:
Hello,

I have a Laney 212R guitar amp. It has two power modes, one is 15W, other one is 1W (in fact "<1W"). Is loudness the only difference between them? Or 15W supposed to sound better? I can't really tell if it's better or just louder. Is there anything wrong with recording with the 1W input? 15W is pretty loud. (And I got the one with 2 speakers for no reason like a moron)

If watts only change the loudness, why do people pay a ton for big amps? Thank you.
Click to expand...

There's an experiment in there!
The guys have explained already but you might find it interesting to make the same recording twice, on 1W and 5W, with everything else the same,
then volume match them in your DAW afterwards.
Maybe even use a DI recording, piped out/in twice, so it really is the same.
I bet you'll be able to tell them apart!

Small amps definitely have a place; Brian may is a great example with the little hifi speaker/transistor amp he used for a lot of his lead tones,
but that wonderful little amp is never going to sound, or feel, like his wall of AC30s.
 
whome said:
Some people believe more louder is always more better.

The only issue is what is the SPL level that they provide where you are listening.
Are you outside in a big ball park? Or are you inside in a small room??

If you hit 75 --80 then they are plenty loud enough.
Some people think they are better starting at 90-100 or so. Those folks are either deaf or going to go deaf andor have tinnitus too.
Click to expand...

You're mixing apples and oranges by talking about safe "listening" level.
The question was about how an amp will sound at lower wattage VS higher wattage, and about using expensive amps...especially in a recording situation where you can use a 100W amp dimed, and still not destroy your ears by simply using headphones or having the cab/speakers in a different room...etc.

You can't really imitate a cranked 100W Marshall with a 1W amp...you can get a ballpark sound, maybe, but it's not going to sound the same...but these are old debates, and everyone can just use what they like, though until you've actually experienced the differences, you can only guess.
It's not about "louder is always more better"...it's about getting the right sound, and sometimes you can do it with lower levels, other times, you need to crank it.
:)
 
whome said:
Depends on your goal.

My priorities are first - save my hearing. Or what is left of it. My ears hurt at over 80 and I wear ear plugs if that is at all possible.

Second get the best sound possible. And this is subjective. Some people do not think it is good unless it is louder.
Click to expand...

Again...you're mixing up several different considerations into one thing.
You can certainly save your ears, and still record a 100W guitar amp dimed.
If you play out...if higher guitar amp level is needed and/or preferred to achieve the desired amp tones...you can still do that and protect your ears with quality SPL-reduction earplugs or higher quality in-ear-monitors that you can control the level of to taste.

Your ears hurting doesn't mean you have to stand in front of a 100W guitar amp dimed, and suffer the pain.
Put the head next to you and the cab in another room, mic it...and close the door.

Just not understanding what point you are debating other than to say you want to save y our ears...which you can, without sacrificing any tone at any loudness level.
It's not just that some people think louder is better...but that for some tones, louder works better when you are trying to dial them in.
Sounds to me like you don't care about tone and all that...and you just want to save your ears...OK...but that's a different discussion. :)
 
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I'd imagine an amp operating at its extremes would probably be less dynamic than one running at nice listening levels. ^^
Miro's right, though..Loudness war, compression, hearing loss; They're not really the issue.

The sound of a recording of a loud amp, regardless of the playback level, is different to the sound of the same amp recorded quietly.
Whether better or worse is the subjective part but I don't think there's much debate around the idea that there are some sounds you just won't get with a quiet amp.
 
Whether it's better or not depends on the amp, and the sound you want.

The rest, I'm afraid, isn't really relevant to the original question.
 
whome said:
Loudness war is a concern to millions of TV viewers and many other media consumers. Witness the pushback by groups making standards to stop it.

Hearing loss is a big issue. Wait till you have problems and you will realise that in spades.

Compression is mostly a matter of taste and not a real issue.

To me I do not really care that much about the sound of an amp. Certainly less than I care about my hearing and having to fiddle with the knob to make things quieter when the track on the CD changes.

If it matters to you then of course crank it up if you think that sounds better.
Click to expand...

You are now yet again introducing one more topic ("the loudness wars") that has nothing to do with the original question and discussion.

Just to refresh...we are talking about tube guitar amps, and does the tone change or quality of it improve when you switch from a 1W amp to a higher wattage amplifier, and/or ones that cost much more.
It's not about what SPL levels damage your hearing, it's not about mastering for loudness, and it's not about always saying that "louder is better"...
...and while I agree with you that what tones sound better to you or me, is certainly a subjective thing...that too is not what the thread is about.

The fact remains (and what the OP was asking) is that often amps with more wattage capability will have more headroom, and they will be able to work more efficiently across a wider range of tones, and in most cases the higher quality amps will improve even more on those differences.

So to answer the OP, again...no, it's not that just you only get more loudness when going from a 1W amp to a 50W amp...there's a lot more in play.
How anyone chooses to use those options and tonal difference, and which ones they prefer or how loud they prefer to play them...is a personal choice...but I will also say again that you don't need to sacrifice loudness (when desired for certain cases) in order to save your ears. As already described in previous posts...you can play loud for the sake of getting a certain tone... and not damage your ears, by using a variety of ear protection.

All the other topics you introduced that we are not talking about here...are all valid topics...and maybe you can start new threads that will talk about them. :)
 
miroslav said:
It's kinda funny that you use that "subjective" line as a way to excuse yourself (or anyone for that matter) from ever agreeing that any one thing is better than another...but in fact, there are numerous cases where a huge majority agrees that A is better than B.
To just keep avoiding those facts by saying..."it's all subjective"...is just an easy way to dodge the reality in many cases.

And 100.0000% I and many other people can say very objectively that a given amp is better than another one, in many cases....and it ain't got nothing to do with "loudness".
There are many ways to objectively measure quality...it's not all the same, and only a question of what I say or you say or someone else says.

But let me ask you this...your comments and the way you state them remind me of someone who was banned here back in April.
The other views you have, and the constant "it's subjective" perspective, and a negative view of buying anything expensive, saying it's all a waste...etc...etc.

Maybe the mods can check and confirm, but you sound just like that guy, who went by the name of "mr average".
You could be his twin brother based on your posts. :)
Click to expand...

Frankly I was already assuming this was either he or another equally clueless troll throwing out mindless useless off the subject crap.

To the original question i am with Steeno, best thing to do is record both ways and use what you want. I record with small amps all the time but i am doing so knowing exactly what i am going for because i have done it before. Plus i have big amps if i need that sound.

The setting I choose have nothing to do with the wattage per se, it is all about the timbre that the track requires. It might need that one watt sound in one arrangement and the higher gain sound in a different setting or part of the song.

And yes, a tube amp will almost always sound different at differing gain levels, less so with a solid state amp IME.
 
The post breaks down to two questions AFAICS?

Does a 1 watt amp sound the same as a 15 watt amp? Of course not and once you move up to 50 and 100W there is a "punch" to the sound that is excitiong and gets the adrenalin pumping! (exciting but as mentioned, keep lug exposure to the minimum)

The second question is the one all recordists who have not or/and cannot crank a 4x12 100W rig want an answer to!
"Can I get the tone/sound/effect of said 100W rig at a lower volume that won't destroy me follicles and wake the chavvy?"

In practice no. But you can get close and of course, virtually no one listening to the excellent Mr May at home or in the car is getting anywhere CLOSE to the stage or studio levels. Note also that studio monitors cabable of the levels of a 50W valve powered 4x12 are quite large and bloody expensive.

You can do 150mph in a blown 1800cc 4 cylinder jam jar but it won't feel the same as in a 400cu in V8 chevy!

Dave.
 
Gtoboy was NOT saying that different was better. Not in any way that I read his post. The word better.......or anything similar....is not there. He goes out of his way to point out that he likes some tones and levels and amps for some things and some tones and levels and amps for other things....and all of that depends on what the track requires......in his experience. It leaves open the obvious.........that he sees "different" as neither good nor bad.....merely as options.

To jump to your "culture of society" assumption....from his post.......is just.......well........????????
 
Not being a guitar player, I remember a little amp called a Pignose. I know it wasn't very powerful, but it had a nice sound. I guess it might still be around. I don't know if it was mostly a practice amp or if it was also for putting a microphone up to it, and then going through a PA. I guess it wasn't just small, but had a certain circuitry in it that gave it that sound. Can you tell I don't play guitar?

But, I know many guitar players prefer a loud amp when they record. Some have an amp simulator for their tone, but it seems that nothing compares to a big Marshall stack that's micked a few inches from the speaker, at high volume. Of course, it's best to have a way to pad the cabinet so it doesn't overpower your ears, or putting the cab in another room. I have a hallway right outside my main studio that works great. Also, a little further down the hall is my kitchen. It's got a 10 foot vaulted ceiling and you can get a really nice room ambiance in there. But, keeping the neighbors calm isn't easy.
 
The problem as I see it is simple physics and the desire of many people to circumvent the laws.

If you asked a saxaphone or bagpipes player to come and be recorded in your bedroom, "but you must not wake the wife who's on nights!" You would be told you are mad and to "go forth and multiply".

Similarly, we don't see many posts about recording rock drum kits in matchboxes? (s'pose you might but I never look in the drums section, might catch something!) People KNOW drums are 'king loud and you cannot turn down Mr Moon. Folks are also aware of the two basic solutions. Software and electronic kits and like all the "quiet" solutions for rock guitar they have their compromises.

So that's it chaps. Can't run a 120dB SPL rig? Use the next best thing and WHAT that is will be debated till the bloody moo-cows come home!

Dave.
 
I don't subscribe to the idea that you need to run a large rig at full volume to get "the sound" for recording. People forget that part of the "full Marshall stack" experience is the visceral aspect of feeling the sound as well as hearing it. Add that to the fact that your ears will adjust to constant loud sound and you've essentially got a moving target. HOWEVER a microphone doesn't have that same problem. It only hears the sound, and it doesn't change the "tone" due to fatigue. You don't need 4 EL34 when 2 will do fine. Same distortion and tonal characteristics and half the power.

As for the OP's question of 1w vs 15w, I think the answer lies in how Laney achieves the single watt level. A lot of amps have half power switches which simply take half the power tubes out of circuit so your overdrive profile stays essentially the same. Obviously Laney isn't doing that. I suspect that Laney may somehow be lowering voltages on the tubes to drop signal levels. Otherwise they would have to limit power with some type of attenuator which is too costly for that price range. You would have to look at the schematics to see what they are doing. Within a reasonable range you can lower voltages and keep the sound somewhat similar, but if they are getting into the "starved plate" range that some preamp makers use, the sound will change quite a bit.

Not doubt that the 15W setting will be louder. As for whether the 15w setting is "better", that's a totally subjective question.

Lots of classic rock songs have been recorded using things like a Fender Champ (5W - single ended 6v6). Its a favorite of Joe Walsh from the James Gang days all the way through his Rocky Mountain days, and was used for some of the Layla sessions, ZZTop's LaGrange, Aerosmith's Honkin on Bobo, etc. You can drive the power tube into saturation without being at 120dB.
 
No, you don't NEED to be at 120dB but that is often the implication.
The fact remains that in a "domestic" recording situation (as against a sound proofed studio) even one watt into a decent speaker will produce 95 to 100dB and that is more than loud enough to annoy people (there is also the incredibly pissing off factor of "just" hearing a guy trying to get a complicated lick just right, over and over again!)

When son was at home we did some tests trying to get a good OD guitar sound. We finished up driving the input triode of a Dominator clone (2x EL84) with the SPEAKER output of an HT-20 (DON'T try this at home folks!)

The result was THE most creamy, distorted "ZZ Top" grind. The speaker was a V30 and the sound level a rather anti-social 90-95dB. The neighbours would stand that for an hour or so in the daytime but not be happy much past 8pm!

Dave.
 
Reading the schematic diagram, I see that inserting signal in the "HI" input a relay is energized and the signal for the output stage is taken before an attenuator. Using the "LO" input, it simply reduce gain before the output stage. In this way, listening at low level, the noise from input stages is reduced.
 
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