Why? are interface preamps so weak

CoolCat

Well-known member
I was playing with a dual pre- rack mount piece.
It has knobs and led scales and DI and Pad, LowCut, Polarity and even a output fine tune...
I used to have a bunch of rack gear in and out of the place, cables, crackling knobs, different tones...

but I wonder today, the Mic Boosters like cloudlifter, SE Dynamite, Triton Fethead, and many more kind of remove the need for a rack preamp for gain.

as for FX units like compressors, delays and reverbs, eq......that can all be done ITB with plugins with total recall and zero cables, and ground hums, etc..(not to mention cash outlay).

I suppose history would show the rack gear obsoleting old echo manmade hallway sized chambers and more....distortion amp rack units offering Clean to 5000 versions of distortion with 1000 FX, removing needs for creating sounds and compressors on every channel versus sharing one unit and writing down the settings on paper, with a pencil for recall...

today my rack dual preamp had a little crackling on the volume knobs, only when moving, and the LowCut button isnt working perfectly, actually a couple buttons arent engaging perfectly..... my cloudlifter and Radial JDI dont have knobs and buttons to go bad....they leave the led meters for the DAW.

Actually if Interface manufacturers made 80db gain preamps, I wouldnt need the Cloudlifter or Preamps. ..definitely wouldnt need rack gear from 1980 or 90 with cables and crackling knobs.

Why dont manufacturers make Interface Preamps with +20db buttons and -20db pads?
I'd probably by one.
 
I was playing with a dual pre- rack mount piece.
It has knobs and led scales and DI and Pad, LowCut, Polarity and even a output fine tune...
I used to have a bunch of rack gear in and out of the place, cables, crackling knobs, different tones...

but I wonder today, the Mic Boosters like cloudlifter, SE Dynamite, Triton Fethead, and many more kind of remove the need for a rack preamp for gain.

as for FX units like compressors, delays and reverbs, eq......that can all be done ITB with plugins with total recall and zero cables, and ground hums, etc..(not to mention cash outlay).

I suppose history would show the rack gear obsoleting old echo manmade hallway sized chambers and more....distortion amp rack units offering Clean to 5000 versions of distortion with 1000 FX, removing needs for creating sounds and compressors on every channel versus sharing one unit and writing down the settings on paper, with a pencil for recall...

today my rack dual preamp had a little crackling on the volume knobs, only when moving, and the LowCut button isnt working perfectly, actually a couple buttons arent engaging perfectly..... my cloudlifter and Radial JDI dont have knobs and buttons to go bad....they leave the led meters for the DAW.

Actually if Interface manufacturers made 80db gain preamps, I wouldnt need the Cloudlifter or Preamps. ..definitely wouldnt need rack gear from 1980 or 90 with cables and crackling knobs.

Why dont manufacturers make Interface Preamps with +20db buttons and -20db pads?
I'd probably by one.

My Steinberg UR824's have 60db gain and -26db pads. Never have I needed a Cloudlifter or had any issue with input gain.

While tracking full bands, I use my favorite Neve clone Vintech X73i on snare. That is the preamp I also use for individual tracking of bass and vocals. That being said, I use just the stock preamps on the 824 with SM7b and there is not any issue with input gain.

I actually have never quite understood why preamp gain is such an issue. Maybe I just never had the problem? Who cares what it looks like in DAW. That is adjustable. The only things I have experienced that would relate, is using say an ART tube pre (which had a lot of gain) but was noisy as all hell if you cranked it. Maybe that was the point with those shitty units?

I could see with something like podcasting, where you are looking for input gain without ability to increase gain on the way in via software, that could be an issue.

I think overall, you want a clean input. How that relates to analog gear in front of input to DAW, that is better accomplished with a whole different and more expensive analog mixer/converter combination.

What are you using for interface now?
 
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I'd say cost (and lack of demand) is the primary reason they don't have more gain. Much more than 60dB is largely wasted for consumers (probably less than 60, really) if they'd fix their recording spaces so they could use one of the bajillion decent, affordable condensers out there. But, yeah, even the SM58 or 57 are usable for recording on your average interface.

It's only that bunch of folks that want to use those [radio era] dynamic mics like the SM7b and RE20, and then for streaming of all things. Let them buy additional preamps, and not saddle the rest of us with an extra expense, or noisier preamps we don't need. That's my $.02.
 
I've only had experience with Presonus, and lack of gain has never been an issue . . . it's not something I ever had to think about.
 
I record far more at a distance than close in, and have also never needed any more gain. I've even got an SM7 and don't have a problem using that reasonably close in. It's a rubbish mic at a distance, but that's not what it's designed for. Nowadays everyone is told they need extra gain. We've never needed it in my own 40 year recording career, why now? Nothing has changed that I can see, and maybe it's just because our meters now show noise at the bottom, we convince ourselves we have to remove it!
 
I understand if your source is loud drums and guitars, my reference is to a typical acoustic and vocal with a -60db noise floor @ idle.

1) for starters Dynamic mics with 1.2 to 1.8 mv/pa....
2) general mic'd source is a quiet source acoustic guitar, non-Slipknot vocals. :)
3) my preamp on interface would have to be 100% to get a -12 signal in the DAW (without the cloudliufter).

Ive tried condensers ..so no condensers, too much hassle, ive tried many times..even recently this week, theres just too much noise picked up.
I like to see no idle noise at -60 or less on the DAW track (Reaper)
Using dynamic mics Shure 57/58/SM7... Interface is +60db gain PreAmps.

With SM58 + Cloudlifter+ interface preamp is at a nice 60% position and I can get the -60db noise floor/idle even in this "noisy-house-room."
It works really good.

But is it that expensive for a designer to add a 25db boost, turbo charge circuit and button?
I'd pay for it. The whole industry doesnt need to change, Im only thinking at least one manufacturer would be able to offer this extra bump in gain, to stay out of the noise area of the IC preamp being clocked at 100%.
 
I understand if your source is loud drums and guitars, my reference is to a typical acoustic and vocal with a -60db noise floor @ idle.

1) for starters Dynamic mics with 1.2 to 1.8 mv/pa....
2) general mic'd source is a quiet source acoustic guitar, non-Slipknot vocals. :)
3) my preamp on interface would have to be 100% to get a -12 signal in the DAW (without the cloudliufter).

Ive tried condensers ..so no condensers, too much hassle, ive tried many times..even recently this week, theres just too much noise picked up.
I like to see no idle noise at -60 or less on the DAW track (Reaper)
Using dynamic mics Shure 57/58/SM7... Interface is +60db gain PreAmps.

With SM58 + Cloudlifter+ interface preamp is at a nice 60% position and I can get the -60db noise floor/idle even in this "noisy-house-room."
It works really good.

But is it that expensive for a designer to add a 25db boost, turbo charge circuit and button?
I'd pay for it. The whole industry doesnt need to change, Im only thinking at least one manufacturer would be able to offer this extra bump in gain, to stay out of the noise area of the IC preamp being clocked at 100%.

I have read your arguments against high priced mic's and it turns out this is one of the things that go in favor of them: they don't need lots of gain to get in to the sweet spot. I find that my less costly mics take a great deal more gain to get them to sound their best, especially when it comes to condensors.

A decent quality tube mic, for instance, will have enough gain that i have to turn the gain on an outboard pre to minimum gain figures for the best results(best signal to noise)
 
This is largely a matter of electronic design limitations and cost.
If we restrict the discussion to interfaces in the $150-$250* range and moreover those with just two mic preamps the situation is...There is only one knob for gain and it is an electronic fact that 55-60dB is about the maximum you can design for whilst keeping a decent range. Even then, the last 10dB or so at the top is usually very cramped and hard to set accurately (when say trying to gain match a stereo pair).

Then, interfaces in this class are often USB bus powered and that puts limits on the internal supply voltages and hence the input headroom. Too high a minimum gain and a hot capacitor will crackover.

There are of course solutions. Instead of a gain 'pot' have a 12 way switched resistor network. Some top line preamps have a (quality) pot but ganged to a switch and a relay that changes the feedback. Really good solution is software, digital gain control but that is expensive to do well.

However, in my 10+ yrs infecting forums I have seen big improvements in AI pre amps in terms of noise and a little more gain. I had an M-A Fast track pro, really a very good AI in its day but the preamps were ***t! Mind you so were most of the competitions, e.g. Tascam 122. My NI KA6 has very quiet pres if not masses of gain but a 58 or similar dynamic is perfectly usable for speech. The pre amps on the UMC204HD are if anything even better and on an AI half the price!

*As AIs get more expensive you are generally buying more tracks not better, more sophisticated pre amps.

Dave.
 
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