Would Shotgun Work For This?

JimboShoe

New member
I'm thinking about buying a shotgun mic, but want to be sure it will suit my purposes, which are:
1) Mainly, for recording my guitar lesson videos (google 'daves guitar planet'). Originally, I just used an SM57 out of frame to capture both my voice and guitar (either acoustic or low volume electric). Then, I upgraded to a nice lavalier/lapel mic for voice, plus 57 on amp (or acoustic line in).
Now I'm thinking an even simpler setup might be to, at least sometimes, use a directional shotgun mic (positioned 4 to 6 feet from me). I make videos in my little room in Bangkok, Thailand. I set up against a bare wall for backdrop. My air conditioner is on the opposite wall. Regular mics would, of course, pick up a lot of aircon noise. I'm thinking a good shotgun would do a pretty good job of rejecting the aircon noise. Plus, it would do a 'good enough' job of capturing both my guitar and voice.
From watching videos about shotguns, it seems most use them on a boom outdoors, when you want to reject traffic noise, etc., but pick up the talent's voice. But I think a good shotgun should also work pretty well in the scenario above. BTW, my room is basically rectangular, but has drapes, mattress, shelving, etc., so is not very reverberant. Some have said shotguns can have a problem with reverb when used indoors, but I kind of think my room won't present this problem?
2) I might also want to use it for the same purpose while filming outside with an acoustic guitar (or maybe to capture my voice, instead of the lavalier mic, which can be a hassle). In this case, I think the shotgun might be a bit farther away...say 8 to 12 feet?
3) I've been studying the Thai language on and off over the 12 years I've been living here. I've often wondered what Thais are saying in informal conversations. (I usually can't catch colloquial, natural speed conversations.) So (though it may seem sneaky/unethical), I'd like to be able to record some conversations around me (in, say, coffee shops), then listen to them with my Thai tutor to see what they're saying. This would, of course, mean hiding the mic (in a sweater, say), and pointing it at my 'victims' while I listen with headphones plugged into my Zoom h4n to make sure it's aimed correctly, with enough gain. Subjects could be maybe 8-15 feet away? Do you think a good shotgun mic could work for this? I know there are some 'spy mics' with small parabolas attached for 'distance listening.' Maybe I'd need something like that for this purpose? Or could a shotgun work?
Also, it seems the Sennheiser MKH-416 is something of an industry standard. I could plop for that, but do you think another is 'virtually as good,' but much cheaper?
Thanks for any helpful thoughts you may have.
 
The AKG 416 is an excellent mic for what it is designed for, and totally awful at recording indoor music in anything other than a very dead and treated space.

The thing you missed is that microphone capture is all about signal to noise - where the signal is the wanted sound (your guitar) and the noise is everything else, including the sound of the guitar bouncing off your room walls. To get clarity and quality you need the microphone - any pattern - to be close to the instrument so the amazing thing call the inverse square law works for you and not against. In essence this says that if you put a microphone a foot away from your guitar, and then increase that distance to 2 feet, the volume does not half, it quarters. Double the distance to 4 feet and it's a sixteenth of the original volume. So at a foot away, the room sounds - the aircon, the reflections, traffic outside maybe - are all way down. Move to two feet and those noises will be much louder. At four feet, the aircon and room sounds will be so much more obvious. One analogy of a cardioid mic is to think of it as a flood light. All the light goes forward, not much sideways and none backwards. You can light your subject evenly from fairly close in. Move it back, and you light more of the room, more dimly. Your shotgun idea means using a spot light - far less light on the room, and you can get the same brightness further away. The only snag is that you are also lighting top the wall behind the subject very brightly too. If the subject moves slightly, they may cross into darkness, leaving even more of the bright wall visible.

This is why video people really don't like using booms indoors - the mic is great at capturing reflections from behind the subject, and needs very exact aiming, which is why proper skilled boom ops wear headphones, so they can hear what the mic hears and keep it aimed at their mouths. Less accurate aiming, from the wrong location produces simply horrible speech. Musically, the mics change their polar pattern as the frequency changes, being much less directional as you go lower, so many shotguns roll off the lower frequencies to try to retain directionality.

They are very expensive, very prone to mechanical and wind noise, and sound pretty horrible for music unless you can very accurately control them. The have a characteristic hollow sound sometimes where reflections fight with the direct sound and you get a phasey comb filtered sound.

What to do? Scrap shotgun and work out how to make an in vision mic look acceptable. There are some very small, discrete condensers that will do a much better job and won't look horrible. If you were local, I'd lend you a shotgun - I have a few in the store for my video work. They never ever get used in my audio studio. Just the wrong type of mic. Distant capture in a rotten room is never going to sound good, so you don't really have much choice when it comes to mic positioning. To be honest, the 57 close in will probably sound pretty good without spending anything!
 
Well, then maybe the only thing I could use a shotgun for in my room would be to replace my lavalier? I've seen several videos of guys in rooms with shotgun on boom just over their heads, aimed at their chests. I sit on a chair during my vid's and don't really move, so I think once the shotgun was in the right spot, it could work to replace my lav...which is a hassle to deal with while holding my guitar. Actually, now that I think of it, with a shotgun just out of frame over my head, if I were holding an acoustic guitar (or even had a small amp at my feet out of frame pointed upward), a shotgun might do an OK job of picking up guitar at the same time. With the shotgun this close, and the aircon 90° on the opposite wall, it seems like it would also do a pretty good job of rejecting it's whir.
?
 
In all probability, no, it will be horrible. If you are thinking of buying a 416 for this, then don't. Source one of the cheaper Chinese versions, that use a similar interference tube, and try it out. Tonally, the 416 usually wins ...... on speech. However, if the cheap one gives you the isolation you need, then sell the cheap one and buy a Sennheiser, but I think it unlikely you will find it musically a pleasant mic to listen to - especially trying to pick up speech and guitar.
You also need to look at the spec - the directionality is all in certain areas - there are some big lobes at the back as frequency goes down, which is where your aircon often has it's noise.

Your money - but shotguns in hard surfaced walls just reproduce the boxiness, and the sound is hollow and distant. The mic needs pointing at a mouth. Pointing at a chest just a short distance away emphasises the roominess, and removes the detail of the voice. Look up lobar pattern microphones, and compare to a cardioid. My 416s never get used in my audio studio because they're just not pleasant sounding on musical sources.

Lavs are the only nice sounding close in mic, but in a noisy room, not so hot. Maybe a slimline headset, or is that out of the question for aesthetics? Out of shot mics mean distant mics and the room will be heard. In a good room it's fine, in a bad one, with hard walls, parallel surfaces and aircon, I just can't see it working for you.
 
The AKG 416 is an excellent mic for what it is designed for, and totally awful at recording indoor music in anything other than a very dead and treated space.

MKH416 did pretty OK in the video below. Evidently the folks at NPR did a little trick of covering up the interference tube 'vents' to reduce/eliminate the phasey, reflective room influence.
Other assorted instances of the MKH416 used by NPR.... NPR Music



JimboShoe

Well, then maybe the only thing I could use a shotgun for in my room would be to replace my lavalier? I've seen several videos of guys in rooms with shotgun on boom just over their heads, aimed at their chests.
I have seen some of these videos (Curtis Judd I think) and they do sound OK. Poor man's MKH416 >>>> AT875R might be worth a look. I have one I'm happy with for the money.
 
I'm wondering why you want to change? A good microphone for voice next to an SM57 for the guitar is good, isn't it?
SM57 is a good microphone and used a lot for recording guitar as you don't want to much high or low with guitar recording for start. If not within you wishes and playing with microphone positioning does to less you could upgrade to SM58 too for some wider frequencies.
To me your set-up seems good enough to get nice recordings.

I found this guy today recording guitar + voice with an overhead 416:
(Since I can't yet post links, it's called "Audio Microphone Comparison - Sennheiser MK 416 Shotgun Mic, Canon XF105, "Soul to Squeeze" Acoustic" on youtube.)

And, just listened to the NPR video that arcaxis posted, which sounds better than the one above, I think.

Right, my current setup (Rode lav on one track; 57 on amp or line in acoustic on another track), works good. But, the skinny, fragile cord on the Rode...having to run it up into my shirt or behind the guitar...having to be careful with it as I go to my desk to adjust my camera (iPhone on tripod), etc. is kind of a hassle.
As you might know, Bangkok is freaking hot 98% of the time. I have two softbox lights on stands that put out a lot of heat. I'll crank up my aircon until right before I'm ready to film, then turn it off so it doesn't bleed into the mics. If my take is very long, I'll be sweating by the time I'm finished.
I have to set two levels on my Zoom h4n. I just thought if I had one mic that could capture both my voice and guitar adequately for a guitar tutorial, while rejecting the aircon pretty well, then 1) making videos would be simpler, and so I'd probably make more of them, 2) I could stay cool while working, 3) I wouldn't have a tiny wire running from my shirt, under the guitar, around my music stand/between me and my desk, then to the Zoom. 4) I have just one track to synch to my video. Life would be easier. But I may be hoping for too much.
A friend is coming to BKK from Seattle in a few days and he has offered to mule a few things over for me. Duty on items shipped to Thailand is harsh (about 60%). I need to decide on this soon if I want to avoid duty charges. Maybe I'll try one of the cheaper shotguns to experiment with. I already have 2 Rodes. Seem like a good company. They have NTG 1 (2, with battery, which I don't need), 4 (4 plus with battery); 3 (a notch above 4, oddly), 8 (ridiculously expensive). So, maybe the NTG 1 or 4? Or another brand?
 
Found on youtube, "How We Record Audio At The Tiny Desk" video. According to engineer Josh Rogosin, its not a Sennheiser MKH 416, but an MKH 418S stereo mic ($1650 at B&H; ouch). Casing looks very similar to MKH 416. I'm guessing it's basically the same mic, but with two capsules...or is it real different?? (No way I'd plop for it, but curious.)
 
Found on youtube, "How We Record Audio At The Tiny Desk" video. According to engineer Josh Rogosin, its not a Sennheiser MKH 416, but an MKH 418S stereo mic ($1650 at B&H; ouch). Casing looks very similar to MKH 416. I'm guessing it's basically the same mic, but with two capsules...or is it real different?? (No way I'd plop for it, but curious.)
Interesting..... I had picked up the info on the mic on another forum, but evidently was not totally correct.
 
On another page entitled, "What's in your bag, Josh Rogosin?," he writes...
"The challenge of recording stripped-down music sessions in unique locations is isolation. The shotgun mics help isolate vocals without the unnatural proximity effect from using a traditional vocal mic at close range."
On his gear list (that all fits into a backpack), is:
"2 Sennheiser MKH 416 shotgun mics to capture vocals at a distance and out of the tight video shot."
 
The 418 is not really just a stereo 416 - different tube design, and is not as directional - just a narrower supercardioid. Actually in the video it's pretty clear it's not a 416 because of the sound. He moves around quite a bit and the sound doesn't change very much at all - just occasional 'darker' bits where he actually gets in the centre line and the thing perks up. Of course you can eq a 416 quite a bit to make it sound warmer, but the things really need to be thought of as torches and the one in the video would have shone on the wall, not his face - and accuracy off aiming is everything.

From time to time, you do see people use them for music - maybe to pick up, as a spot mic, that single piccolo in the orchestra, but shotguns have almost cardioid response at the LF end, and narrow progressively as frequency increases, so go off-axis just a bit and the sound really suffers. If anyone really wants, I could strum a guitar with one and compare it with something like a 57 if you really want to hear how they sound - just shout if you want the comparison.

Using a 416, the eq'ing the hell out of it is just crazy.

Video folk spend ages complaining about using shotguns indoors.
 
Well, I did perhaps the stupid thing and just ordered it (with shock mount and dead cat kit), delivered to my friend in Seattle to bring with him Oct. 2. It will be an addition to my collection of mics, and it's good to know it's a valued mic in case I ever do decide to sell it. I've also been wanting to toy with doing a bit of outdoor movie making, and that's certainly what this excels at.
Maybe once I get it I'll report back if it works for my tutorials. Thanks for you input.
 
Ok, I get it, you want one. Get a decent isolation mount that will fit it. Pretty crucial. They're a bit prone to handling noises without. The good news is resale values hold up pretty well.

For outdoor use you have a bit more expense to consider. The Rode booms are good for beginners, but you really need a proper system. Mount, blimp and then a hairy cover. Although Rycote make some very good one piece covers. The key feature is the way the mic clamps to the mount. Elastic bands or clever little plastic lyres that provide the isolation. The Zeppelin style covers work in light winds but the hairy cover is essential in anything greater than a breeze. The bass problem we spoke about is the main issue. The mic is forward focused at speech and above, but almost Omni directional for wind! You'll get a foam windshield with it but outside they can't really cope. For video work they're the standard workhorse. I have two 416s and a longer audio technica and they do a great job. I just never use them for music because other mics do it better. I could use them out of shot indoors on a boom, but I'd use lavs as the number one there.

Worth having in to mic box, just a bit misplaced for music for me.
 
Getting tripped up by the cable is part of the fun - happens all the time, but you develop little tricks - little loops that cope with sudden head turns, and plenty of slack. These loops also help prevent mechanical noise going up the cable - which is another hazard. All that said, the broadcasters stopped using booms in the studio a long time ago. They worked of course, but get in the way, require very able ops, and lavs were welcomed with open arms.
 
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