Supercardiod? dynamics for pattern in bad rooms

CoolCat

Well-known member
I was wondering why I didn't hear much difference in my SM7b and SM58, and kind of preferred the SM58.

Looking at specs, the patterns are very similar in "bad room" rejection, cardioid design.

Then the freq chart made me realize something too. Whats the first thing I would do with a SM7b vocal track? Add 10khz, add some sparkle and the SM58 already has a lot of that going on. The other habit is slapping on a HPF cutting out low end, whatever 100 to 150hz or 80,,etc.... making the mics even more similar.

Of course the SM7b has the option to be more versatile with the little EQ sliders built into the mic, but I never used them much due to having eq in the plugins.

The SM7b is worth the cash extra I guess, I love the metal grill and foam covers etc..but the SM58 a few inches away works fine too and Im not running around much in my closet sized bedroom space when doing vocal or playing a guitar. (usually sitting these days) so capsule distance isn't hard to lock in with the SM58.

Then the "bad room bedroom closet studio" thing was previously determined that the Dynamics helped a lot and so the Higher Sensitivity LDC's I had, KSM 27,32, 44 , SM81 etc...and the patterns they presented didn't help eliminating the room and dogs barking outside and life noises were much more present with the great crisp LDC and SDC's....Dynamics made the accumulative tracking quieter and though I love the dogs, I didn't feel their barking was something I preferred to be picked up with the acoustic guitar track.

Of course Shure is having a sale on several mics...$50 off the KSM32, $100 off the 44, $20 off the BETA 58 etc..etc..until March 16.

GAS strikes.....Ive never tried the BETA SM58A SuperCardioid mic?

Anyone have experience with the cardiod vs supercardiod? pro's, cons, no difference?
 

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Supercardioid and hypercardioid are basically cardioid patterns that begin to make a slight transition to figure 8. As the polar plot shows for the Beta, the null is 120 degrees off axis rather than 180 and there is a very small pickup envelope at 180. You can expect rejection at the null to be slightly deeper than cardioid. It's worth considering for something like floor monitor placement on a stage. You can also expect more proximity effect than cardioid, but the Beta looks to have a steep rolloff around 200 Hz to allow you to get right up on the mic without getting too boomy. Something like a Beyerdynamic M88 has extended low end response making the proximity effect more obvious at close distances. As you move farther away, aiming the mic becomes more finicky because of the narrower pickup pattern. The working distance to the mic will have a significant effect on rejection.

Each to their own, but in general I prefer the SM57 and SM58 to their Beta counterparts. It's not about proximity, rejection or gain before feedback. More like presence. The usual disclaimers about matching a mic to a source, blah, etc.
 
What about microphone diaphragm collective size? Like if I used 4x AKG414's that each have 1" diaphragm face for collecting sound information. If I use 4x 1" diaphragms that is 4" of collection area, would that not give me more of the signal at the same gain level?
 
I find Beta58s to be a bit harsh and edgy sounding. I don't think the pattern is going to help all that much. If you really want to isolate the room get right up on the grille and use eq to compensate for proximity effect. The proximity effect curve on an SM58 should be pretty similar to what's shown on the Beta58.
 
What about microphone diaphragm collective size? Like if I used 4x AKG414's that each have 1" diaphragm face for collecting sound information. If I use 4x 1" diaphragms that is 4" of collection area, would that not give me more of the signal at the same gain level?

If you use 8 mics, you could increase it to 8"...
 
So if I sing into the left side of the mic, it picks up more bass? Could never understand those. So I fix...
Annotation 2020-03-07 201256.jpg

414's hypercard diagrams showing left sided weakness.
Annotation 2020-03-08 010649.jpg
 
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The 414 does all the patterns... does anyone use the SuperHype Cardioid? or is it a bell & whistle and the mic spends 99% in cardioid mode?

(trick question to see if anyone really uses supercardioid)
 
The 414 has some great options. Omni for overheads, point em at the ground if you want. Supercardio for a small bedroom with drywall, cut out some of the reflections.

Most of the time I use a cheap P420 or SM58 on cardio.

Trying to use 8 mic's at once thru the Mackie board. I only have a handful of microphones. Still looking for more signal. Going to need to borrow a few. 8" of diaphragm area should make the experiment. See if it is a fuller reproduction at the same gain level.
 
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I suggest buying 8 Neumann KM184s, taping them all together with the capsules meticulously lined up to avoid any phase cancellation. Only about $6000 for the package. Make sure to get a strong stand. A cheapo OnStage stand will buckle under the weight!

That should get the level up a bit!
 
I suggest buying 8 Neumann KM184s, taping them all together with the capsules meticulously lined up to avoid any phase cancellation. Only about $6000 for the package. Make sure to get a strong stand. A cheapo OnStage stand will buckle under the weight!

That should get the level up a bit!

:thumbs up:

:D
 
Make sure to get a strong stand. A cheapo OnStage stand will buckle under the weight!

I will use mad scientist skills. They say a hexagon structure is the strongest in nature.

How many 1" diaphragms does it take, to get to the tootsie roll center of a tootsie pop? Ah, Lets find out..

If I extend the legs out it will increase the Miller index weight distribution. If I make it out of crystal it will reduce magnetic interference.
millerscale.jpg
 
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So my efforts will be fruitless?

That means that a 1" doorway into the DAW is the same as a 8" doorway. Or is it not actually a 8" passage for music, but still 1" doorways only 8 of them. The quandary.
 
Just remember... Opportunity knocks, but its up to you to Open The Door!











I can't believe I still remember that. A guy on TV used to use that as a closing line for his show. It came on every Saturday afternoon, right before wrestling. I probably heard that guy say that a hundred times, as we would gather around to see that week's matches. That was only about... 50+ years ago!
 
The 414 does all the patterns... does anyone use the SuperHype Cardioid? or is it a bell & whistle and the mic spends 99% in cardioid mode?

(trick question to see if anyone really uses supercardioid)
Short answer is no.

I don't use one on a multi-pattern mic but I have used Shure Beta 58a and 57a mics, and a Sennheiser (not sure which it was - it was the singer's mic and I looked it up to know what I was dealing with). I still use them if I'm recording at a venue that supplies the mic and nobody wants to change it.

In those super/hyper-cardioid dynamics (like the Betas), IMO they're primarily designed for the tighter pattern, which helps feedback rejection in louder environments, especially smaller spaces. They're also a bit hotter (than the 58/57), so the gain doesn't need to be cranked quite as much, also helping with feedback control. And, as noted, they've got a bit more "bite" to my ear, so probably "cut through the mix" for those folks that have troubles with the proximity effect consequence of having to stay on top of a 58 when it's dialed back to reduce feedback (e.g.).

Downside is the sound if it isn't what you want, and also that tighter pattern is problematic for folks that can't stay on the mic in a consistent way. I see lots of problems with folks at open mics that use the Beta when performers can't stop turning their head to look down at the fingerboard when they are singing. A regular cardioid is going to be a little more forgiving. And, that little tail at 180 will pick up something loud like a floor wedge. The last [new] Beta 58a box I opened included a little cardboard thing to put on the mic to show where floor monitors could be placed, specifically eliminating the spot directly behind the mic. That's one reason I got rid of my Beta 57as - as a mic on a guitar cab sitting on the floor they tended to pick up floor monitors a little too well. (I did like them for vocals, but I have SM58s which I just found easier to record because of the less demanding pattern.)
 
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